John R
32 Cal
I will take a photo or two of some hammers, I have one that is from the Union Pacific Rail Road and marked as such. Pre 1900.
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Knife forging questions....
- Thread starter firestick
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I will take a photo or two of some hammers, I have one that is from the Union Pacific Rail Road and marked as such. Pre 1900.
firestick
40 Cal
As a master bladesmith your words carry great weight. I think this is a learning process not only through information obtained but also learned through experience. It is my understanding high carbon steels do not take to forging well with extreme pressures applied rapidly or all at once. Even with that knowledge it takes experience in knowing how hard to strike or how much pressure should you be fortunate enough to have a press forge. Most of what I have tried to get across in using scrap metals is how to strike metals and how they are shaped using techniques and tools. One simple example is making a strong and aesthetic 90 degree bend in iron. You don't just "crank it over". I will never work at it enough to think I would become even a journeyman bladesmith but I sure hope to have some fun walking the trail.
firestick
40 Cal
Something I found useful in learning to move metal which can only help in this adventure to making a knife or two is a YouTube channel called DF- In The Shop. He has some great tutorials for newbs. He even experiments with making a file.
JCKelly, yes grain size makes a difference and a real important consideration. Thermo cycling not only removes stresses from heating and cooling (normalizing), the successively lowering of heat cycles reduce grain size resulting in a tougher blade/tool. This practice is a habit for me.
John R, Putting the hot piece in lime will soften it (annealing). I do this mostly on steels that are prone to air harden.
John R, Putting the hot piece in lime will soften it (annealing). I do this mostly on steels that are prone to air harden.
John R
32 Cal
Lin I reviewed all your posts. Mighty fine knives you produce! I like the Bowie in your first post, nice blend of materials.
Yea, the ol' lime bucket has many uses. Handy for keeping steel parts from hardening after a little heavy work with the heat. Especially if drilling and machining is involved after the rough shaping.
Yesterday I dug up some coffee cans behind the barn and extracted some funds for a Rockwell Hardness Tester. Found a nice one on Ebay that is well tooled. Bad part it is in Chicago, about 1800 miles away. It will be hitting the freight truck in a few days, I should have it in two weeks. Tester and accessories is about 300 pounds. a little too much for UPS or the Post Office.
Lots of Rockwell testers on Ebay but many have been stripped of the anvils, penetrators, and test weights. Sort of useless other than being used for a boat anchor. Penetrators are easy to find, anvils are so=so but the test weights are about impossible. A Rockwell tester with out the weights is about as useful as a metal lathe without a tailstock. And most of the sellers do not want to bother with crating and shipping, they have "Free Pickup" in their listings.
The tester will be an useful addition to the shop. Should have bought one many years ago as I do a lot of gun work. And custom machining with alloys that require heat treatment.
Yea, the ol' lime bucket has many uses. Handy for keeping steel parts from hardening after a little heavy work with the heat. Especially if drilling and machining is involved after the rough shaping.
Yesterday I dug up some coffee cans behind the barn and extracted some funds for a Rockwell Hardness Tester. Found a nice one on Ebay that is well tooled. Bad part it is in Chicago, about 1800 miles away. It will be hitting the freight truck in a few days, I should have it in two weeks. Tester and accessories is about 300 pounds. a little too much for UPS or the Post Office.
Lots of Rockwell testers on Ebay but many have been stripped of the anvils, penetrators, and test weights. Sort of useless other than being used for a boat anchor. Penetrators are easy to find, anvils are so=so but the test weights are about impossible. A Rockwell tester with out the weights is about as useful as a metal lathe without a tailstock. And most of the sellers do not want to bother with crating and shipping, they have "Free Pickup" in their listings.
The tester will be an useful addition to the shop. Should have bought one many years ago as I do a lot of gun work. And custom machining with alloys that require heat treatment.
John R
32 Cal
On the way from Chicago, shipped yesterday. Truck freight (300 pounds) so it will be a week or two before I see it.
Well tooled. With all the weights too.
No more guessing!
Well tooled. With all the weights too.
No more guessing!
firestick
40 Cal
Wow you are getting beyond serious with this thing!!!
John R
32 Cal
Wow you are getting beyond serious with this thing!!!
I also machine gun parts and things like reloading dies and sizer dies for lubrisizers. A little heat treat is required the only way to test if it is proper is to use a Rockwell tester. So yea, a long overdue addition to the shop.
I will ship the forging steel Monday.
Greetings My Good Firestick
You got a great deal of info here, but To answer your original question,
For cheap materials to make "knives as working tools" these three scrounged steels are hard to beat
- scrounged automotive leaf and coil springs
- old files ( NOT farrier rasps - most are cheap chinese manure)
- flat pry bars (as you asked in your original question)
IF you get them cheap or free large open end wrenches are pretty good also, but the steel
content can vary dramatically.
I personally prefer to use old Detroit Leaf or Coil spring for pretty much everything.
It is a great medium-high carbon steel that is oil or water quenching, very forgiving,
It makes great knives, excellent tomahawks or axe heads, punches, turnscrews,
chisels, fireplace pokers, pretty much anything. It takes well to heat treating and
quenching in oil. I prefer to temper my work the old way (the way I was taught)
heating the back side gently and watching the colors run, then quenching in water
when the desiored color get to the edge.
I get it for free off the side of the road or cheap at flea markets and garage sales.
It is almost always the same formula, so it quite consistant.
Thinner leaf springs for knives means less hammering, and if you don;t have a power hammer
that makes a difference.
I have also used old files ( they are a bit higher in carbon and can thus be brittle)
and the cheap flat pry bars that always go on sale at the chinese tool stores.
The flat pry bars make a great utility knife or backwoods knife ( ie: a prybar with an edge)
and so far seem to be almost indestructable.
For practice, almost anything except rebar is good for making hooks, square nails,
wood stove tools, anything a smith would have made in the day.
Rebar is a strange thing, it is made by melting any old scrap and seems to vary from
something like soft mild cold rolled to something crazy like work-hardened high carbon alloy.
hope this helps
shunka
You got a great deal of info here, but To answer your original question,
For cheap materials to make "knives as working tools" these three scrounged steels are hard to beat
- scrounged automotive leaf and coil springs
- old files ( NOT farrier rasps - most are cheap chinese manure)
- flat pry bars (as you asked in your original question)
IF you get them cheap or free large open end wrenches are pretty good also, but the steel
content can vary dramatically.
I personally prefer to use old Detroit Leaf or Coil spring for pretty much everything.
It is a great medium-high carbon steel that is oil or water quenching, very forgiving,
It makes great knives, excellent tomahawks or axe heads, punches, turnscrews,
chisels, fireplace pokers, pretty much anything. It takes well to heat treating and
quenching in oil. I prefer to temper my work the old way (the way I was taught)
heating the back side gently and watching the colors run, then quenching in water
when the desiored color get to the edge.
I get it for free off the side of the road or cheap at flea markets and garage sales.
It is almost always the same formula, so it quite consistant.
Thinner leaf springs for knives means less hammering, and if you don;t have a power hammer
that makes a difference.
I have also used old files ( they are a bit higher in carbon and can thus be brittle)
and the cheap flat pry bars that always go on sale at the chinese tool stores.
The flat pry bars make a great utility knife or backwoods knife ( ie: a prybar with an edge)
and so far seem to be almost indestructable.
For practice, almost anything except rebar is good for making hooks, square nails,
wood stove tools, anything a smith would have made in the day.
Rebar is a strange thing, it is made by melting any old scrap and seems to vary from
something like soft mild cold rolled to something crazy like work-hardened high carbon alloy.
hope this helps
shunka
firestick
40 Cal
Thank you sir Shunka. The 1st knife I fell in love with was a Deersticker by R.H.Ruana. He made his knives from leaf springs for years and are STILL one of the most sought after knives today. My 1st lessons in forging will be to hammer on rail spikes to learn how to move metal. I do plan on using leaf springs after I learn a bit about how to hammer metal and with what hammers. Again thank you for your great response. Haven't started yet as I am still waiting on refractory cement to arrive to line the forge with over the kaowool.
John R
32 Cal
Lots of old wives tales about rebar.
Sure, there is made in china junk.
But high quality rebar of known alloys and heat treating is used in critical applications like bridges, high rise buildings, parking garages, and the like. The rebar used in these applications has certifications that are called out on the drawings and the documentation travels with the rebar to the construction site.
You just gotta know how to identify the stuff!! I have about 30 feet of 90,000 psi tensile rebar that was used in Interstate 90 bridge construction here in WA State. 1 inch and 1-1/2 inch. Enough carbon to take some heat treat, would make good digging bars or chisels.
Welders at a mill I worked years ago cussed rebar when they tried to weld it. What they did not realize is that they had alloy rebar with carbon content that was not intended to be welded. Look at construction drawings, the rebar is tied with wire and the bar for columns is put together with hoops. Welding is not allowed on rebar in serious construction!!!
I use 18 inch long pieces of 3/8 or 1/2 rebar as a handle when forging good steel, I just weld the rebar to the end of the forging steel. Cut it off when forging is complete. A lot easier than trying to hold a piece of knife forging steel with tongs!
Leaf springs: Do not use old ones, they are prone to having internal cracks. I have a pile of leaf springs from my boat trailer, they started breaking with the boat/trailer parked in the barn!!! Threw them in the scrap pile, it was a tandem axle trailer. Installed new springs.
You can buy new leaf spring material on Ebay.
When you progress to real knife making, it is best to use known alloys.
Sure, there is made in china junk.
But high quality rebar of known alloys and heat treating is used in critical applications like bridges, high rise buildings, parking garages, and the like. The rebar used in these applications has certifications that are called out on the drawings and the documentation travels with the rebar to the construction site.
You just gotta know how to identify the stuff!! I have about 30 feet of 90,000 psi tensile rebar that was used in Interstate 90 bridge construction here in WA State. 1 inch and 1-1/2 inch. Enough carbon to take some heat treat, would make good digging bars or chisels.
Welders at a mill I worked years ago cussed rebar when they tried to weld it. What they did not realize is that they had alloy rebar with carbon content that was not intended to be welded. Look at construction drawings, the rebar is tied with wire and the bar for columns is put together with hoops. Welding is not allowed on rebar in serious construction!!!
I use 18 inch long pieces of 3/8 or 1/2 rebar as a handle when forging good steel, I just weld the rebar to the end of the forging steel. Cut it off when forging is complete. A lot easier than trying to hold a piece of knife forging steel with tongs!
Leaf springs: Do not use old ones, they are prone to having internal cracks. I have a pile of leaf springs from my boat trailer, they started breaking with the boat/trailer parked in the barn!!! Threw them in the scrap pile, it was a tandem axle trailer. Installed new springs.
You can buy new leaf spring material on Ebay.
When you progress to real knife making, it is best to use known alloys.
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