Kit building inlets

[Noeyebrows]

Hi everyone, I have finally purchased a kit parts set from one of the most reputable kit and lock suppliers. I am nearly done with the mechanical assembly and I am truely enjoying the process of learning and building. I just wanted to vent a bit about the pre-inletting on these carved stocks. These "kits" are a substantial investment, and I am surprised at the number of oversized inlet defects on the stocks. They aren't readily noticable when you just unbox the new kit, but are found along the way. This seems to be a common complaint across the board with the exception of one supplier who uses CNC equipment.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Hi everyone, I have finally purchased a kit parts set from one of the most reputable kit and lock suppliers. I am nearly done with the mechanical assembly and I am truely enjoying the process of learning and building. I just wanted to vent a bit about the pre-inletting on these carved stocks. These "kits" are a substantial investment, and I am surprised at the number of oversized inlet defects on the stocks. They aren't readily noticable when you just unbox the new kit, but are found along the way. This seems to be a common complaint across the board with the exception of one supplier who uses CNC equipment.

That's a pretty general and sweeping criticism. My experience building "kit" guns from Pecatonica, Muzzleloader Builders Supply and Clay Smith (Kibler's kits are in a league of their own) has been quite good with some work needed for good fits, naturally. That's the nature of "kit" building. Some skills required.
Perhaps you can speak to your specific, singular example?

 

[Noeyebrows]

My question is this: Why on earth has this been the standard for carved kit guns for so long. I would imagine anyone who has run into these problems would agree that it would be easier to build if these pre-inlets were simply omitted, no lock plate inlet, no side plate inlet, no rear ramrod inlet. The real value is in having the basic form of the stock pre-shaped along with the barrel channel and ramrod hole drilled. There is some value in the pre-inlets for locating a part in relation to the stock, but sometimes this must change if there are any problems with barrel channel or ramrod hole. At the very least, kit makers should be darn sure these pre-inlets are under sized. An oversized inlet should not be happening at this price for the kits.

 

[billraby]

It is easier to build from a blank.

 

[Noeyebrows]

In my specific case the defects were minor with the exception of one part that will have to be re-made from sheet brass because the inlet defect was too large to be filled by cold forging or "stretching the metal". It's not a big problem, and actually gives me the ability to more closely mimic the original gun that inspired my build design. I don't think a sweeping criticizm is due, I believe these problems are the exception rather than the rule. Nevertheless comments are sprinkled across the forums about inletting problems. Several folks say " I have built a few kit guns, but now I prefer to start from a blank", due to said problems.

 

[Noeyebrows]

^ there it is from Bill Raby. (P.S. Thank you for your videos, they are such a valuable contribution to the building community, very generous of your time to produce and upload so much content.)
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent a bit. I think a few tweaks to the stock carving on kits would go a long way. I would like to see non-inlet kits be a more common offering from suppliers instead of it being a custom request with long turn around time.

 

[Eric Krewson]

Bill is right, it is much easier to build from a blank particularly if you have the barrel inletted and ramrod hole drilled by an expert. I had the barrel inletted on two stock blanks done by Fred Miller, they were perfect with just the right size web. I bought two precarves, the first had 1/8" of wood on one side of the barrel channel and 1/2" on the other along with some gouges that I had to fill with patches. I was building a very slender TN rifle so I could make the lopsided precarve work, I didn't have the lock inletted which I found out on precarve #2 was a good choice. Precarve #2 was so bad I only worked on it when I wanted to get P#$$ off, it had at least a dozen major flaws which I have detailed in full here way too many times.

After my precarve from hell experience, all of my future builds will be from a blank unless they are a Kibler which is self explanatory.

 

[rafterob]

I have only built one rifle from parts. I sourced the stock from Pecatonica and the gentleman I spoke with at the time was very helpful. After some discussion to determine my skill set, he suggested a pre-carve stock the the barrel channel carved and ramrod hole drilled only. I did not find the inletting too difficult. I had read on here too many comments about pre-inletted stock issues.

 

[oldwood]

Before all the preinletting advantages came on scene , most builders I hung out with , had a standard axiom....Learn to fix your own mistakes , and imperfections , as you go. Then you can learn to build a gun. Become friends with Epoxie. All will be well.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Some folks get ideas, suggestions or actual fix examples when writing about challenges faced in a build (kit or otherwise). Getting good advise on a build challenge here can be invaluable and might be more worthwhile than simply "venting".
Regarding your issue of a gap between metal and wood, some folks have done amazing work in fixing that. You might be surprised and realize things might not be all that bad. (And if the kit is of such poor quality, perhaps return it!)

 

[Noeyebrows]

Some folks get ideas, suggestions or actual fix examples when writing about challenges faced in a build (kit or otherwise). Getting good advise on a build challenge here can be invaluable and might be more worthwhile than simply "venting".
Regarding your issue of a gap between metal and wood, some folks have done amazing work in fixing that. You might be surprised and realize things might not be all that bad. (And if the kit is of such poor quality, perhaps return it!)

Things are definitely not all that bad. The kit is overall very good quality and I have been in touch with the seller. I have found good advice here on how to fix these problems. All the wood metal gaps have been closed, with the exception of one which will need a replacement part that covers the old mortise. I am "venting" because there shouldn't be inletting problems on a $1200 kit. Make the inlets under size or not do them at all. The repair work is valuable experience and knowledge, but I would prefer to fix my own mistakes and not someone else's.

 

[The Appalachian]

I am "venting" because there shouldn't be inletting problems on a $1200 kit.

I can probably guess which kit maker you're referring to. I'm dealing with pretty much the same thing, with a $1200 kit. Inletting metal to wood and building from a slab is no stranger to me, but for this rifle I figured a reputable kit would be a quicker means to the end, due to current circumstances.

It will be the last kit I buy from them for any reason and I'll go back to scratch building from now on.

My issues weren't over sized mortises, or misaligned parts, or anything like that. It was just very sloppy work on what they did cut.

For example, the trigger mortise was done with I'm guessing a hand held router and it must have caught and slung a small radius cut on each side of the mortise which was big enough I had to make pieces to fill them. Fortunately it doesn't stick out after all the metal has been inletted, but i know it's there.

Another thing was so much wood was removed from the lock mortise I felt I couldn't trust it's strength so I milled it clean and made a piece to snap fit in, epoxied it, and recut the mortise myself.

The barrel channel is straight and clean enough, except for the slivers of wood missing on the top edge where the router bit turned the wrong way to the grain and broke out slivers. I'm hoping those disappear, or at least minimize, when i block plane the top of the stock.

It's just a bunch of little stuff that one by itself I could keep quiet about, but it's accumulated enough that i said never again. I know what work to expect on a kit but I would have been embarrassed to let this stock out the door.

I'll fix it all and it won't show to anyone but me, but they got the last $1200 of mine. I'd rather sink the cash into better parts and wood and come out ahead just doing the work myself.

Edit to add: I understand production through put and using a router is faster, but it's not better. If you MUST use a dang router to meet your bottom line, then for the love of God A'mighty teach your people how to use one.

 

[Red Bob]

I have a parts set with pretty much the same issues.
the lock mortise is cut way too deep, the barrel channel is to deep and too long.
Beautiful piece of wood though. Maybe some day when I have more experience I’ll try to work on it.
for the money I spent I could have bought another Kibler

 

[hectorintca]

I can probably guess which kit maker you're referring to. I'm dealing with pretty much the same thing, with a $1200 kit. Inletting metal to wood and building from a slab is no stranger to me, but for this rifle I figured a reputable kit would be a quicker means to the end, due to current circumstances.

It will be the last kit I buy from them for any reason and I'll go back to scratch building from now on.

My issues weren't over sized mortises, or misaligned parts, or anything like that. It was just very sloppy work on what they did cut.

For example, the trigger mortise was done with I'm guessing a hand held router and it must have caught and slung a small radius cut on each side of the mortise which was big enough I had to make pieces to fill them. Fortunately it doesn't stick out after all the metal has been inletted, but i know it's there.

Another thing was so much wood was removed from the lock mortise I felt I couldn't trust it's strength so I milled it clean and made a piece to snap fit in, epoxied it, and recut the mortise myself.

The barrel channel is straight and clean enough, except for the slivers of wood missing on the top edge where the router bit turned the wrong way to the grain and broke out slivers. I'm hoping those disappear, or at least minimize, when i block plane the top of the stock.

It's just a bunch of little stuff that one by itself I could keep quiet about, but it's accumulated enough that i said never again. I know what work to expect on a kit but I would have been embarrassed to let this stock out the door.

I'll fix it all and it won't show to anyone but me, but they got the last $1200 of mine. I'd rather sink the cash into better parts and wood and come out ahead just doing the work myself.

Edit to add: I understand production through put and using a router is faster, but it's not better. If you MUST use a dang router to meet your bottom line, then for the love of God A'mighty teach your people how to use one.

I would really like to avoid those issues.
What company did you purchase your kit from?

 

[oldwood]

Don't be offended.........A suggestion....Have less done to the stock. Have the stock shaped as to school , barrel inlet , and ramrod channel routed , and hole drilled. Take it from there. You can do it.

 

[Noeyebrows]

Don't be offended.........A suggestion....Have less done to the stock. Have the stock shaped as to school , barrel inlet , and ramrod channel routed , and hole drilled. Take it from there. You can do it.

I feel like that should be the standard. If I do another pre-carve, that’s how I will request it

Don't be offended.........A suggestion....Have less done to the stock. Have the stock shaped as to school , barrel inlet , and ramrod channel routed , and hole drilled. Take it from there. You can do it.

 

[The Appalachian]

I would really like to avoid those issues.
What company did you purchase your kit from?

They're not the most talked about company out there, but they're not unknown either. The thing is I read nothing but good reviews, and tried hard to find something negative, and couldn't.

So it's hard for me to dis on a company that maybe somebody just had a bad day.

When I unboxed it I saw most of the problems right away, and should have just sent it back. But I didn't want to go through the hassle of waiting out another lead time.

My advice is whoever you order from, bring potential issues out in the open over the phone with the person taking your order and make them understand you'll be looking for problems, and then if you receive something less than you expect, just bite your lip and send it back.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I gave up on precarved stocks long ago due to the problems mentioned in the OP. However, I recently bought a Hawken fullstock from Pecotonia and it was fine. The barrel channel was inlet a bit undersize and the ramrod hole was drilled. The side panels were way oversize and there was enough wood left on the forend and buttstock to allow for some of my own ideas. The wood was better than what I thought it would be and will finish up to be a very nice rifle if I don't foul it up myself. I am a satisfied customer.

 

[Noeyebrows]

I would really like to avoid those issues.
What company did you purchase your kit from?

This is a small community and most kit makers are also contributors on these forums. They are small family businesses for the most part and I wouldn’t name names. It certainly doesn’t seem to be isolated to one company. I would say this, a call to action: Make a couple small adjustments to the duplicator machinery so that the inlets are undersized and in the correct location and leave some wood to work with. Watch the quality control, or folks like Jim Kibler are going to really put a strain on their businesses.
I don’t necessarily want a kit where the parts just fall into place, I am really enjoying the layout, inletting and fitting. I think the pre-carved stock kits fill a good niche for some builders. I just feel like it wouldn’t take much re-tooling to make a much better product.

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

I problem I have had with a closely pre-inletted stocks is that you are locked into a particular barrel profile. I wanted to switch from a Colerain to a Long Hammock barrel and had to rework the barrel channel to make it fit. If there had been just a little excess wood left this could have been avoided. Also, if the ramrod tubes are already located, they are more difficult to move. Same goes for ornate trigger guards and butt plates.