J Dickert barrel

[steviejake]

I asked my uncle for a barrel to build a rifle and he gave me one that my grandpa found back in the 50's. He said it was signed but the rifling was shot out and has a sleeve my grandpa was going to sweat in and rebore. Anyway, I found the signature was J Dickert. It is a 43" octagonal swamped? barrel. The bore is a little over 1/2". I slipped the sleeve out and it appears to me to be a smooth bore. The rear sight is present. There are 4 pairs of square indentations on the bottom of the barrel. There is a notch where the front sight would go and another on the bottom directly underneath the rear sight. A couple of questions please. Could the rifling actually be "shot out" or is it more likely a smooth bore? Also, the primer hole is threaded. Did Dickert build rifles that took a cap or was this perhaps a flintlock that was converted to percussion?
thanks, Steve

 

[steviejake]

Here are some photos of the barrel if I did this right. One shows the metal sleeve that's been resting inside the bore for over 50 years. It's a snug fit but slides in and out easily. The barrel is about an inch in diameter at the breech, around 7/8" in the middle and about 15/16" at the muzzle and 43 1/8" long.


http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4631.jpg& http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4648.jpg& http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4647.jpg& http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4617.jpg& http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4637.jpg& http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4622.jpg& http://s619.photobucket.com/albums...t%20barrel/?action=view&current=IMG_4629.jpg&

 

[Zonie]

You are probably aware of this but J. Dickert was one of the classic builders so I would advise that you don't do anything to this barrel to "fix it up".

The Dickert rifles shown in "RIFLES OF COLONIAL AMERICA" Vol I, G. Shumway, 2002 all had barrels longer than 43 inches. Most of them were over 45 inches.

That said, there is a good possibility that your barrel was shortened and converted to Percussion, hence the threaded hole in the side of the barrel.

The 4 dovetails on the bottom of the barrel were for the underlugs which attached the stock to the barrel.

The dimensions of the octagon indicate it is indeed a swamped barrel. Speaking of swamped barrels a great many of the originals had much less "swamp" than the modern versions.

Although many of J. Dickerts barrels are rifled some are smooth bored.
Whether they were originally smooth bored or were rifled barrels which had been "shot out" and smooth bored later is impossible to say.

IMO, you've got a piece of American History there in your hand. Enjoy it as you ponder where it has been and what it has seen.

 

[steviejake]

Zonie, thank you so much for your input. I did know that JD was an early and important gunsmith in American history although I have been having trouble finding pictures of his rifles. Thank you for the lead.

Just to clarify, there is one dovetail where the front site would be on top and one on the bottom directly below the rear site. I assume the one on the bottom is for the lug you speak of. Also on the bottom are 4 sets of 2 small square holes or indentations spaced out along the length of the barrel. I added a couple of pictures of them. Maybe they are for fastening the barrel to the stock or the ramrod guide to the barrel?

Since I found out who made the barrel I quickly decided not to sweat that insert into the bore. I only leave it there because my grandpa put it there and he died in 1959 so it makes me feel a little bit connected to him.

I do try to imagine where this barrel has been and what stories it could tell and am very aware of it's rarity and beauty. I collect anvils and think they are beautiful too. That being said, in your opinion would it be in poor taste to build a rifle around this barrel? That's why I was looking for pictures of Dickert rifles in the first place. To see what they originally looked like and ponder the idea of building a working replica. Open to ideas and suggestions.

thank you, Steve

 

[fitter]

That barrel is a great find. Please don't do anything to it. Just preserve it for what it is, a grand piece of American history. The 4 pairs square indents are for barrel staples for pins or keys.Check out Shumways Rifles of Colonial America, vol.1, Whiskers Gunsmiths of Lancaster County, and Kindigs Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in the Golsen Age for pics of Dickerts guns.The signiture in your pics looks real!!

 

[brubincam]

-----QUESTION ??--a lot of original rifles have been restored and used--why not a barrel if it is useable ?? :idunno:

 

[steviejake]

thanks fitter, were those barrel staples soldered or peened into those square holes? Were they to hold the barrel into the stock or to hold on the ramrod guide? The guns my grandpa and dad use to make only had half stocks so they had a metal "guide" on the bottom of the barrel until the ramrod entered the stock. Also, what do you suppose that dovetail on the opposite side of the rear site was for? Could it have been cut for the site and then he didn't like it so turned the barrel 180' and cut another? I am disappointed that the smaller hole is threaded. I was hoping to make a flintlock with this barrel.

 

[steviejake]

Rubincam, I was thinking the same thing. The integrity of the barrel wouldn't be disturbed by building a gun around it. It's already apparently been converted to a percussion rifle. Adding the staples to the bottom would be the biggest modification to it unless the threads aren't usable at the breech or drum hole. Most of the barrel and the signature would still be visible. I thought it would be a fun project.

 

[Zonie]

To the best of my knowledge Dickert never made a half-stock rifle.

The underlugs that are for the pins that hold the stock to the barrel would have been swaged into those square holes.

If those square holes are on the same side of the barrel as the large dovetail I would say that the large dovetail was also for an underlug.

The rearmost underlug that holds the stock to the barrel is the one that is under the most stress when the gun is fired. That is to say, because the stock under the rear sight is much thicker than the fore end of the stock it is stronger. Because it is stronger it is more capable of resisting the vertical movement of the barrel.

When the gun is fired, the recoil that tries to lift the barrel out of the stock and this rear underlug transmits the recoil energy to that thick area of the stock.
Because the rear underlug is doing all of this work, a simple swaged in staple could come loose.
A dovetail being much stronger won't come loose.

 

[JV Puleo]

I don't see any problem with using the barrel over either, provided it was left unmodified i.e. not "reconverted," shortened, lengthened etc. ... These are all things that are commonly done in the specious name of "restoration" and obscure the historical record any artifact leaves us when preserved in the state it was in when finally put aside. But, if none of these things are done, what harm could there be in giving an old artifact a bit of new life.

 

[Extranero]

Personally, I would sell that one and buy a new one. That barrel is worth more than a new one. If you are starting out in building longrifles, you are better off messing up on a new one than a piece of history.

Sean

 

[Dphar]

I asked my uncle for a barrel to build a rifle and he gave me one that my grandpa found back in the 50's. He said it was signed but the rifling was shot out and has a sleeve my grandpa was going to sweat in and rebore. Anyway, I found the signature was J Dickert. It is a 43" octagonal swamped? barrel. The bore is a little over 1/2". I slipped the sleeve out and it appears to me to be a smooth bore. The rear sight is present. There are 4 pairs of square indentations on the bottom of the barrel. There is a notch where the front sight would go and another on the bottom directly underneath the rear sight. A couple of questions please. Could the rifling actually be "shot out" or is it more likely a smooth bore? Also, the primer hole is threaded. Did Dickert build rifles that took a cap or was this perhaps a flintlock that was converted to percussion?
thanks, Steve

First leave the barrel ALONE. If its a real Dickert barrel its not to be tampered with. It needs to be examined by someone with the proper credentials.
I would go to this site and post some photos of the barrel and its markings. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php#1

Second: Yes they did shoot out. Many of these barrels were in use for generations and were often worn to the point they required "freshing" and an enlarged mould to restore the accuracy.
Some were made as rifle stocked smoothbores.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I don't see any problem with using the barrel over either, provided it was left unmodified i.e. not "reconverted," shortened, lengthened etc. ... These are all things that are commonly done in the specious name of "restoration" and obscure the historical record any artifact leaves us when preserved in the state it was in when finally put aside. But, if none of these things are done, what harm could there be in giving an old artifact a bit of new life.

This is not a valid concept. If done by a good maker its near a fake, if hacked up it loses its significance. There is no reason to build a rifle using an original Dickert barrel. There are better, safer barrels available if the owner wants to make a rifle I would trade him a new barrel for the Dickert pending examination of the barrel for verification that it is as claimed.

Dan

 

[tg]

I would be tempted to find an original Dicker gun compatable to the barrel and make a "copy" of a Dicker smoothrifle if the barrel is sound.

 

[Zonie]

Speaking of "trading" I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Mr. Rice, Getz or Colerain would be willing to build a totally custom barrel in trade for that Dickert barrel. He might even be willing to throw in a few extra bucks.

A real Dickert barrel isn't something one comes across very often in their lifetime.

 

[Dphar]

Speaking of "trading" I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Mr. Rice, Getz or Colerain would be willing to build a totally custom barrel in trade for that Dickert barrel. He might even be willing to throw in a few extra bucks.

A real Dickert barrel isn't something one comes across very often in their lifetime.

I don't really want it but it needs to find the right home.
As per your final sentance.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I would be tempted to find an original Dicker gun compatable to the barrel and make a "copy" of a Dicker smoothrifle if the barrel is sound.

I suspect its already been bored for the liner but would need hands on to really have an opinion.

Dan

 

[steviejake]

No, I don't believe it was bored for the liner. It doesn't look like it's been bored anyway. As far as I know, per my uncle and my dad, my grandfather found an insert that slipped right into the "shot out barrel". It fits snug enough that it will stay in the barrel on it's own when holding the barrel vertically but will slide right out with minimal effort. Like I said, he was going to sweat that into it and rebore it. They used to make rifles back in the 50's out in Iowa.

 

[steviejake]

thank you for the information. I will send pictures to the website you offered and see what they think. Actually, I recieved the barrel a few years back and saw it was signed and didn't think anything about it until watching Antiques Road Show one time and there was a Dickert rifle on it and I went up and got the barrel and sure enough that's what it said. I knew then I wouldn't sweat the insert into it but would study Dickert rifles and possibly build a replica around it someday. I did build a percussion pistol out of a piece of barrel my dad had laying around when I was in my late teens. I made the lock from scratch using hacksaws and files. Even the hammer out of a big chunk of steel. I've wanted to get back into it for the last 30 years.

 

[steviejake]

Sean, you are right, I wouldn't want to mess up this barrel but actually I wouldn't have to do much to it. the breech and drum holes are already threaded, the rear sight is intact and there is a dove tail for the front sight. The underlugs holes are already there so no metal would have to be removed to put it together. I will do nothing to it for now though.