It's funny what gets a pass....

Discussion in 'Forum Announcements & Support' started by Brokennock, May 6, 2019.

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum by donating:

  1. May 6, 2019 #1

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

    50 Cal.

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,610
    Likes Received:
    290
    Location:
    North Central Connecticut
    Oh M.L.F. what has befallen thee?! Like much of society, when those who seek truth and light, desire learning over b.s. get fed up with mindless incoherent drivel and speak their mind, often after self censoring desired responses, they are the one censored and repressed. I see it everywhere I go, someone acts a fool and when another gets tired of it and speaks up, they are the one in the wrong. Now it has infected this forum. Someone derails good topics with off topic self aggrandizing babble, or waters down a thread with commentary that makes one wonder if the poster knows what the thread is even about, often rambling on and on in an incoherent manner devoid of syntax or trackable line of thought or reason. And we are supposed to just be okay with that.
    Say something about it, even if it gets a "here here," from others as they wish they had spoken up, that comment will be removed.

    I've learned to much here over the years, and the forum is too active, for me to just leave (as some valuable sources of info have recently) and not try to dig a bit of value out of what is here. But one must wade through more and more murky babble to find anything one might call learning, than in years gone by. Often there is things one might call interesting, but not helpful in one's journey of learning about traditional, historical, muzzleloaders and the culture they were used and developed in.

    Anyway, sorry if it was inconvenient for me to have spoken my mind, of someone will send me the coordinates of a reeducation camp I will be sure to report there to get my mind right.
     
  2. May 6, 2019 #2

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio

    It is true, what has fallen on society, our society? When one looks for knowledge, yet finds LITTLE or NONE. As Brokennock said, people of great and valuable knowledge have left this forum, and members of this forum, the new members and the old members alike, may have to search through unnecessary channels, to get to the Mountain of the Wealth of Knowledge. It truly is sad. Well said Brokennock!
     
  3. May 6, 2019 #3

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Moderator Staff Member MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    28,070
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Brokennock:

    The following forum rules have been in effect ever sense I joined the forum 15 years ago.

    If a post is in violation of these rules, expect it to be deleted.

    Although rule 13 is talking about disagreeing with something that was posted, IMO it also applies to the way some other member writes his posts.

    We can't all be masters of the English language so we have to try to be a bit tolerant of the few of us that aren't very good at writing down what they are trying to say.

    Yes, it can be hard to read what they post and at times they do seem to be rambling off topic but that's the nature of some people.

    I suppose I could become a tyrant and kick anyone who doesn't write as well as you do off of the forum but where do I draw the line? If they misspell a word to they get zapped? If they go off topic, do they get zapped? If they don't use proper capitalization and punctuation do they get zapped?

    Although you seem to think you have been wronged when a post you wrote belittling another member was deleted, it was easier for me to remove your post than it would have been for me to leave it. Had I left it then I would have to remove all of the counterattacks and then the counter-counterattacks and then the original post that started all of the arguments and bickering.

    OK. Now, back to the grumbling.... :cool:
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
    Va.Manuf.06 and Samuel like this.
  4. May 6, 2019 #4

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

    50 Cal.

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,610
    Likes Received:
    290
    Location:
    North Central Connecticut
    "Please remember to stick to the subject matter," would this not apply even when not a "debated topic?"

    I think my question was legitimate. If one rambles on and then says, something to the effect of, " shorry t rammmmbblle on sho, I been hanging out with Jim Beam n ar fren Johnny Walker, ol Jose Cuervo decided to innerject." We could all feel some semblance of understanding. A light would come on and all would be clear.

    It's not like my response wasn't building, post after post after post of the same excrement. It's like when someone is talking loudly and constantly in a theater and a few people try to discretely indicate their displeasure and to request the person be quiet, finally someone gets fed up and tells the rambling loudmouth to "Shut the H... Up," and that someone gets vilified for being so un-p.c. and rude.
    We aren't talking about one instance of poor communication skills, or one example of going completely off topic, it is a constant pattern.

    I understand the moderators job is pretty much thankless and underappreciated, and rarely "easy." It would be just as easy to remove the completely off topic post I responded to. Please carry on with what is "easier." Society is benefiting greatly from the easy way.
     
    Juice Jaws, Shot deer and bubba.50 like this.
  5. May 6, 2019 #5

    trent/OH

    trent/OH

    trent/OH

    58 Cal.

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,396
    Likes Received:
    22
    We must remember what the internet is all about. We have at our fingertips the sum of all human knowledge and wisdom throughout history, yet we use it to argue with strangers, and share pictures of cute animals. Shame on society, not the Forum. I wish I could find a folderol app for my computer.
     
    Brokennock and FishDFly like this.
  6. May 6, 2019 #6

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio
    What about defending your position? I've seen on this forum instances of where someone states a fact or opinion, and people are automatically like "he's the enemy!" Not literally, but you get the point. Someone that says something that , say, five people don't like, they jump all over the origanial poster. If that member defends himself, with pointing out the other people's faults, why should that be considered a personal attack?
     
  7. May 6, 2019 #7

    arcticap

    arcticap

    arcticap

    54 Cal.

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    248
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    Folks may not realize that there was an entire thread deleted due to what started out as petty bickering that became vulgar, insulting, accusatory, and borderline slanderous over the past events and history between 2 members that went too far and quickly got out of hand.
    It was an interesting and productive thread but all of the productive posts were lost, all due to the few offensive posts.
    So the topic was never able to be continued to its natural completion which some of us were waiting for photos from the OP.
    The entire thread was under Administrative Review and was being discussed by the moderators because it was so horrific.
    I have no doubt that the administrative discussions that went on about that deleted thread and offensive posts contributed to the way that this new unfolding incident was treated by Zonie.
    I don't think he needs to explain how these kinds of petty incidents can result in an explosion of personal attacks and vulgarity that had actually spilled over from another forum and had been brewing for who knows how long.
    If folks could have seen how such a personal feud between 2 individuals could suddenly rear its ugly head, then they wouldn't complain about why Zonie decided to nip another potential explosive round of bickering right in the bud.
    What may seem harmless to some doesn't always end up that way.
    Bravo to Zoniie and the Administrators for keeping the forum civil, G rated and family oriented.
    Folks should be aware that when it comes to personal bickering, there's more to the picture than meets the eye.
    Anything that can done to reduce the heat before the pot boils over again is a good idea.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
    nhmoose, RonT, dave61965 and 2 others like this.
  8. May 6, 2019 #8

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

    54 Cal. MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,530
    Likes Received:
    509
    Location:
    Near Yosemite Park
    Very well said, for what's it worth I agree with your post and know where you are coming from.
     
  9. May 6, 2019 #9

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio
    Brokennock was saying about how someone that calls someone out on, well something that is totally going WAY off topic without stopping, etc, is "censored and repressed." Etc means things relating to what Brokennock wrote in the original post.....
     
  10. May 6, 2019 #10

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    58 Cal.

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,759
    Likes Received:
    144
    Location:
    Winchester, VA
    "If that member defends himself, with pointing out the other people's faults, why should that be considered a personal attack?"

    Isn't that the classic definition of a personal attack? The proper response would be to refute the attacker with logic and proof of the validity of one's post or to ignore them entirely. Unfortunatly there are a very few here who are quite inflexable, beieving their way to be the only way and seem to regard an attempt at discussion as an attack. I have watched the bickering escalate over the past year or a little more reaching the point where I sent Zonie a PM a few months ago stating that I was about to pull the plug. Well I took a few days off, took a deep breath, pulled up my big boy pants and stayed hoping that by sharing my limited knowledge I could help others and in turn learn from them. Over a lifetime I have had some very stressful jobs and had stressful situations develop but coming to this forum should not be counted among them.

    I have great respect for Zonie and Stumpkiller and Angie has been incredibly helpful and I wonder sometimes how they do it and why they would continue to do the job. We all could certinally help them by not getting involved in a topic on an emotional level and just walking away from the computer for a while before posting. If I were a moderator I can assure everyone there would be far more posts deleted and threads locked than now.
     
    arcticap likes this.
  11. May 6, 2019 #11

    Angie

    Angie

    Angie

    Administrator Staff Member Admin

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    169
    Thank you @hawkeye2 Zonie and Stumpkiller do a really great job here. And as to the original post about being censored, if you are tearing into someone else. Yep. It happens.
    If you cannot defend your position without resorting to personal tear downs, then you are not defending what you consider "the truth".
    Also, If you don't like someone's posts and they irritate the snot out of you, just go to the User Control Panel. Look for People You Ignore.
    upload_2019-5-6_10-13-30.png

    upload_2019-5-6_10-15-4.png

    Put as many people on it as you want. Then you can selectively see only those you want to see. That way, you do not have to "endure" the ones that go off topic, ramble on, or don't meet your posting criteria.
     
    Pete G and Hiparoo like this.
  12. May 6, 2019 #12

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio
    I too respect the Moderators and the Administrators that run this forum. They have a tough job.

    As for other members, I have respect for their opinion, whether I agree with it or not. But I have seen some people on here get attacked over something little, but they are defenseless for fear of getting deleted. I read this forum before I became a member, and I didn't just pop out of bed with all the knowledge. I like to learn on here, after all isn't this what it is for? But I can not stand seeing someone getting attacked over their opinion! Moderators and Admins. can only be in one place at a time. They have lives, and they can't spend every breathing minute checking people and their posts out. I know that. I respect that. I expect that. But it would be nice if you can learn from other people, and pass the knowledge on without getting riddled with attacks.
     
    Vladislav Krovopuskov likes this.
  13. May 6, 2019 #13

    Angie

    Angie

    Angie

    Administrator Staff Member Admin

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    169
    @Shot deer I would hope if someone sees that happening they would report the post, so all 3 of us in Admin/Mod could see it and redirect or shut down the attacks. No one should have to defend themselves to that extent. So, before exploding into angry retorts that attack others to defend yourself, let us know earlier than that.
    And I really would hope that those that know information would help the newer ones. Belittling ignorance (not having knowledge) never helps.
     
  14. May 6, 2019 #14

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    9,512
    Likes Received:
    765
    Location:
    Republic mo
    We are on a public forum, and a post grows organically. We don’t know what’s in the head of someone writing a reply. I might consider something related to a subject while some one else doesn’t see a relationship.
    No one can insult me in a written post,we’re expressing opinions.
    History remains foggy. Short of a registered invention most things have a foggy beginning. We argue over the edges, over the fog. We argue about silly stuff.
    None of us can be 100 %. We do our best, or not. We are just playing in history and each of us decides how far we want to go. Bob is happy lighting a cigarette quickly with a lighter. Tom will only smoke a pipe and light it historically, both are on vacation and having fun, neither effects what the other does.
    Jack has a pedi or Indian Bess, Lewis has a bench copy, they don’t effect each others enjoyment of the sport.
    You can skip any one who post something you don’t like, and if someone is says something insulting big boys and girls should be able to ignore it. Chances are you will never meet that person, if you do you will share a beer and make nice.
    We should be a las bastion against snow.
     
    Shot deer likes this.
  15. May 6, 2019 #15

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio

    Angie,

    I would never resort to "angry retorts" to defend myself. It only stiffens the other person against you. You are an Administrator for MLF, even though I respect other people on here, I respect you more for your position. You've helped a lot of people alongside other Admins/Moderators. I (try) to give credit where credit is due.

    "Belittling ignorance (not having knowledge) never helps", I don't quite get you there, so if you could inform me about what you mean, I would be glad to listen (read).
     
  16. May 6, 2019 #16

    arcticap

    arcticap

    arcticap

    54 Cal.

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    248
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    It all boils down to someone needs to judge the intent of a post.
    It's a common pattern.
    Someone announces that they're sick of a topic, leaving a thread and won't return which can be a warning sign.
    But then they do return to get in a dig or two.
    Another person gets defensive and rudely exhibits a senior moment which many would ignore if it were a family member.
    Even though his intent was to protect the freedom of discussion.
    But then he gets bullied for his grammar.
    If others are allowed to chime in and take sides, then the thread is derailed and another topic is lost.
    It often happens with speculative technical topics such as when technology, science or chemistry clash with opinions and concrete proof is lacking.
    Zonie uses his wisdom to enforce boundaries by judging intent which draws a complaint of censorship.
    But actually I think that he's trying to not allow a subject to go up in flames.
    It all boils down to intent in the eyes of the moderator and not censorship.

    I've never seen as much flexibility as there has been lately with regard to the mention of centerfire guns in a non-muzzle loading context.
    In one thread, Zonie politely asked to not let it go down that path which was like a signal to some to immediately begin going on about them.
    But in his wisdom, he ignored it and their mention quickly stopped on its own which shows that he knows how to not to be overly intrusive.

    But whether it's called bickering or cyber-bullying, I think that now he carefully used a scalpel instead of an ax and cutting down an entire thread.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  17. May 6, 2019 #17

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio
    I would think that comparison with cartridge guns vs muzzleloaders would be fine. What do you mean of a "non-muzzleloading context"?
     
  18. May 6, 2019 #18

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

    50 Cal.

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,610
    Likes Received:
    290
    Location:
    North Central Connecticut
    He left the polyps that started the cancer in the 1st place.

    And again. I was not criticizing 1 instant, or "slip," of just bad grammar, it is a constant stream of just random babble, often off topic, that constantly dilutes otherwise good threads. It is a pattern of this person over time that eventually becomes too much to take.
    There are plenty of posters here, myself included quite often, who's English teachers would be ashamed of, one who I respect it took me a long time to learn to read his posts as he doesn't proof read and correct for spelling and other issues, that I say nothing about. When someone posts something that has nothing to do with the o.p. and makes no sense, we all just close our eyes. Really? That's the solution? Someone rambles on and on diluting the quality of a good discussion, like the lonely guy at the bar who's been there too long and is looking for a fresh set of ears to wear out, "oh, just ignore "ole Blevins," we are told.

    I have great respect for our moderators, just like many of our elected officials, the problem isn't with them, it is with the people who put them there, same here, the populace let's the b.s. go and wonders why things get dumbed down.

    Anyway, I said my peace, probably not as well is I'd have liked.

    Good day.
     
  19. May 6, 2019 #19

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    Shot deer

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Northern ohio
    Once again, I appreciate Angie respectfully addressing me and other people, whether I agree or not. Angie is a Admin, and not entitled to respect me or really anybody else on here, but yet she does, so I listen to what she has to say with a open ear. You might say Angie is a good person to model your behaviour on when your on here.


    Also, anybody that thinks I'm bashing, attacking, or anything else, I am not. If you think I am you are entitled to say it, but I might not believe it, because I am not bashing, attacking etc! You might take as I am, but I am not.

    You might call me a new member, so I don't know about it all. You might call me young, dumb, and stupid (sorry Zonie, you can replace stupid with stars if you want...).
    You could call me a host of names, but in the end, does it matter? NO!!!
     
  20. May 6, 2019 #20

    arcticap

    arcticap

    arcticap

    54 Cal.

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    248
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    It was stated to the effect that it was okay to mention centerfire when in the context of comparing them to muzzle loaders, as in a performance comparison.
    I took that to mean not as an isolated topic in and of itself.
    Even though in some posts and threads, folks tend to mention some centerfire gun they own in passing, totally out of the blue, and without any connection or context to muzzle loading at all.
    In a thread about self-defense it was understandable that it went on and on.
    But in other threads some people do seem to start going on about them as if they were part of the muzzle loading hobby when they're only part of the shooting sports in general and their cross-ownership of different types of guns.
    I'm not blaming or pointing fingers, but if there's "unmentionable parts" of actual muzzle loading that shouldn't be discussed, then why are people interjecting details about their cartridge guns without any muzzle loading context?
    My entire point is that I haven't observed any movement towards censorship on this forum.
    But only a greater amount of liberties being taken by some of the membership without their toes being stepped on for each and every minor infraction or mention of centerfire.
    As an NRA member it doesn't bother me, but I have noticed it,
    I don't see harm in it, but it shows a tendency for discussion to drift away from traditional muzzle loading topics toward becoming more of a social platform.
    Maybe some of these folks tend to forget which sub-forum they're posting in at the time, or just feel comfortable being among friends. ;)
     

Share This Page



arrow_white