Italian Made Guns

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FishDFly

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Wondering what is going to happen in the future with the cost and availability of Italian made M/L's is going to be.

For the most part, all of the M/L's are made in Italy today. There is really no way at this point to speculate what is going to happen with the situation there now.

Guess if a person has been considering buying an Italian made M/L this might be the time to get it before there is really a shortage in the future and the price increases which are sure to come.

Also wonder what will happen to used market if anything.

fdf
 

wiksmo

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I think I'll have the chance to "see" how getting ML stuff from Italy will be moving ahead. Second week in March, I bought a new Pedersoli .36 CAL Cook Underhammer. I received good customer service through some direct emails with Davide Pedersoli in Italy, and with the U.S. Pedersoli distributor, IFG, in Amarillo, TX. I have the pistol in hand. However, I don't have any cleaning tools for that caliber other than the ramrod, which came with the pistol. So less than a week after I received the underhammer, I ordered a patch puller and ball puller. Order needed to go through IFG for Pedersoli accessories, and they told me they had no idea how long it would be until order completed. With the current unknowns, it could be quite a long time.

So like most everything recently happening (or not happening), one day at a time. Just hope so many folk in Italy (and everywhere) get the help needed for the serious health issues first. I'll be glad to have my cleaning tools waiting somewhere between Italy and TX for however long it may take.
~wiksmo
 

Old Hawkeye

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I'm not sure I follow the logic. FishDFly is saying maybe we should consider buying (hoarding) Italian muzzle loaders & thus creating the future shortages & price increases he's worried will follow. I think that's the same mentality the people hoarding toilet paper have. Really? When faced with a life & death crisis & the potential collapse of our economy, the last thing I am thinking about is a "toy" & how I might not be able to "play" with it. There will be plenty of ML's available when this pandemic is over. Just hope & pray it doesn't destroy our lives. Just food for thought.
 
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I'm pretty optimistic that all will be well. When Italy survives this current mess, they wI'll want and need their economy to roar back. The same goes for us in the US. I'm holding on to some money and hope to do my part then. I'll hit local restaurants and Dixon's Muzzleloader Shop. I was saving for a used full stock in 45 or 50, but that money may go elsewhere now.
We're going to be fine, if we keep cool heads, help those around us, and then do our level best to help get the economy back on its feet.
 

FishDFly

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I'm not sure I follow the logic. FishDFly is saying maybe we should consider buying (hoarding) Italian muzzle loaders & thus creating the future shortages & price increases he's worried will follow. I think that's the same mentality the people hoarding toilet paper have. Really? When faced with a life & death crisis & the potential collapse of our economy, the last thing I am thinking about is a "toy" & how I might not be able to "play" with it. There will be plenty of ML's available when this pandemic is over. Just hope & pray it doesn't destroy our lives. Just food for thought.
My thoughts were speculation on what may happen.

If you look at Cherry's, Flintlocs Etc. and some of the other distributors the last several years, there is normally a comment, "check on availability on many of the M/L's. Some of Pedsersoli's have been difficult to get for quite some time.

In normal times Europe shuts down for a month for vacation. During this time no M/L's are made. Once they return to work, there is a considerable lag time from completion of M/L's and their arrival in the U.S. since they are shipped by ship in containers.

The same will impact the only Pedersoli repair center in the U.S. needing parts for repairs and warranty work.

fdf
 

nkbj

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Wondering what is going to happen in the future with the cost and availability of Italian made M/L's is going to be.

For the most part, all of the M/L's are made in Italy today. There is really no way at this point to speculate what is going to happen with the situation there now.

Guess if a person has been considering buying an Italian made M/L this might be the time to get it before there is really a shortage in the future and the price increases which are sure to come.

Also wonder what will happen to used market if anything.

fdf
It appears to me that the advent of the crisis is coordinated with the ending of the global debt run up. The end of that run up is going to have economic impacts beyond even our abilities to estimate at this time. There may not be an Italian muzzleloader industry by the time this is over and done with. Not because the virus whacked the people making or buying but rather because the industry needed the economies that were previously present as an environment in which to prosper.

So yeah, if I was wanting to get one I'd get it right now. But that's just what I personally think rather than what you're gonna hear anywhere else.
 

Coot

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I believe that in the not too distant future there will be a number of "bargains" listed for sale as the number of people losing income due to business closures will try to raise money by selling off some of their "stuff". Further down the road, lost government income and "stimulus" spending will lead to higher taxes & less discretionary spending will lead to the closure of multiple companies dealing with non-essentials. Hopefully things will not get too bad & the current crisis will not last too long.
 
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Buy American. You’ll get a much better gun.

Maybe if the Italians start to lose business, they’ll at least attempt to make guns that more closely resemble traditional firearms to draw people back in?
 
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Could you please provide a list of "American" makers?
Chambers, Kibler, Rice, Colerain, Davis, L&R, the list goes on and on and on.

Those are just folks making components. There are excellent builders (and you can build a kit yourself) in this country. 100% American made components, FAR better quality and attention to detail than any mass-produced European product. Guns that actually look faithful to historic designs. No “BLACK POWDER ONLY MADE IN ITALY SERIAL NUMBER THIS AND THAT” billboards all over the barrels, and supporting American artisans and craftsmen.

As someone who’s owned Italian/European repros for years I know where I stand. They generally are NOT bad guns, but leave a whole lot to be desired in some areas, and SOME are indeed not well made, even from names like Pedersoli I’ve gotten some real dogs with severe design issues and poor construction.

I used to think American guns were “too expensive”. When you look at the prices Pedersoli demands for their wares, and compare them to used or new American customs of simple design, it isn’t really true. A little digging and networking can uncover some excellent deals on American guns. True, a hand carved bespoke American long rifle is NOT going to be cheap, but builders abound who focus on simpler rifles and fowlers, pistols, shotguns, muskets, you can it, who can build you a gun with superb components for a very reasonable fee.

The pride of ownership of an American gun, with excellent lock and barrel produced by our fellow countrymen, is incomparable to any repro. Some get in this game thinking the Italian guns are all there is or all they can afford. THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE.
 

TFoley

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With such a HUGE market for US-made goods, you really don't need anybody else in the whole wide world to buy ANYTHING made by an American gun-maker. However, the reality is that while there is no doubt about the quality of materials and the intrinsic design and manufacture of ANY US-made gun, it has to be proofed on an individual level here in Europe and in the rest of the world that relies on the tenets of the CIP to maintain the safe and shootable quality and integrity of each and every firearm imported into any of the member states.

It's no use saying 'we don't NEED your overseas markets, we can keep them all to ourselves', without realising that you already do just that.

As much as I'd like to, I can't buy ANY US-made firearm, custom or mass-produced, without it having to go through the rigours of gun proof, and get marked up somewhere [hopefully where it can't be seen] with indelible and immovable 'proof' of that process. Y'see, in the US you can 'defarb' anything to your hearts content and put on anything you like instead, or nothing at all - your choice. Here in the CIP nations it is a criminal offence to offer for sale a firearm that has no visible proof marks.
 

Kansas Jake

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Smokey, buying American is good in theory, but if one has a limited budget, hasn't shot muzzle loaders, or isn't sure if it is a road they want to travel your options are mostly limited to a used Thompson Center Hawken. Renegade or Seneca. Most folks can't afford the $1000 or more it would cost to get a finished gun from the makers you listed. I own a bunch of guns. I've never paid $1000 for any of them. A gun in that range is simple out of my budget range. In fact most medium cost firearms are out of my budget range and have been for most of my life. Family, kids and other obligations have always come first. The pieces I own were mostly bargains found by being on the lookout for a opportunity.
 

Old Hawkeye

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Chambers, Kibler, Rice, Colerain, Davis, L&R, the list goes on and on and on.

Those are just folks making components. There are excellent builders (and you can build a kit yourself) in this country. 100% American made components, FAR better quality and attention to detail than any mass-produced European product. Guns that actually look faithful to historic designs. No “BLACK POWDER ONLY MADE IN ITALY SERIAL NUMBER THIS AND THAT” billboards all over the barrels, and supporting American artisans and craftsmen.

As someone who’s owned Italian/European repros for years I know where I stand. They generally are NOT bad guns, but leave a whole lot to be desired in some areas, and SOME are indeed not well made, even from names like Pedersoli I’ve gotten some real dogs with severe design issues and poor construction.

I used to think American guns were “too expensive”. When you look at the prices Pedersoli demands for their wares, and compare them to used or new American customs of simple design, it isn’t really true. A little digging and networking can uncover some excellent deals on American guns. True, a hand carved bespoke American long rifle is NOT going to be cheap, but builders abound who focus on simpler rifles and fowlers, pistols, shotguns, muskets, you can it, who can build you a gun with superb components for a very reasonable fee.

The pride of ownership of an American gun, with excellent lock and barrel produced by our fellow countrymen, is incomparable to any repro. Some get in this game thinking the Italian guns are all there is or all they can afford. THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE.
Sure didn't mean to rankle any feathers. Was just curious what American companies still made ML firearms. Appears that only a handful of small operations making them in limited numbers & varieties still exist in the USA. That being the case it is doubtful they could supply enough guns to meet the market demand. So your buy American theory is commendable, as I prefer to buy American as well, but it may not be realistic. Hopefully everyone who makes these firearms, both here and abroad, will continue to do so.
 

TNGhost

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Don't know about rifles, but having purchased a couple cap and ball revolvers in the last little bit, I am up on the prices and availability a little there. I picked up a Pietta Dance and Brothers revolver from BudK of all places, for a nice price of $300 with free shipping a month or so ago. I notice they now have them priced at around $350 and they are out of stock. Dixie had them, at the time I bought mine, at around $350 (IIRC) and now they have them on sale for $325 and in stock.

I also bought a Uberti 1st model Dragoon from Dixie, about the same time, that they had on sale for $325, which is still shown as on sale, but "currently unavailable". Dixie has a number of percussion revolvers on sale in fact. So kind of a mixed bag I guess.

The one thing I have seen some volatility in lately is the conversion cylinder market with many sources selling out and prices varying widely, although I wouldn't know why, as they are a domestic product.

As far as buying American, I agree, its for the best, but should we lose the Italian makers, it is going to hit the War of Northern Aggression military style rifles, and pistols hard. Hopefully, if that turns out to be the case someone domestically will step up.

I think the Italian makers, and even the domestic production surviving, largely depends on how this all plays out and who is left with the upper hand coming out the other side. We all may very well have more to worry about than where we can pick up that next muzzleloader.
 

Enfield58

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Even though it would be nice to pick up a quality American made cap & ball revolver, I have to tip my hat to the Italian manufacturers and pay homage to Val Forgett.

If it wasn't for him and the Italians, we could not be enjoying our hobby to the extent that we do today.

The majority of us probably would have never started shooting front-stuffers unless we had found an Italian made gun in a store. Like most of us, I don't like seeing all the modern manufacturer markings on the barrel of my muzzle-loader but it isn't a deal breaker for me.

If I were in their shoes, I'd be proud to put the name of my company on the barrel. Even though shooting is one of the safest hobbies in the world, there is an occasional contender for the Darwin award who puts smokeless powder in his or her gun and blows it up.

That's why we see BLACK POWDER ONLY stamped on the gun.

I use to drive nothing but American vehicles but finally started driving a small import about three years ago and I've had ZERO mechanical problems. I could write a book about all the problems I've had with US vehicles through the years. Besides, there are some foreign auto manufacturers making their vehicles in the US anyway. Sorry for the thread drift.

I wanted a nice custom made flintlock rifle a while back. I didn't have a problem with spending close to $2,000 for one. I just didn't feel like waiting a year for it to arrive. So, I bought a Pedersoli Frontier flintlock. It's a great rifle and priced just right.

If I had to wait a year for the Pedersoli as I would a custom rifle, I would have spent the extra money and waited for the latter.

So hurrah for the Italians. A lot of us owe them a great deal for their willingness to step up an fill a need in the shooting sports.
 
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