I shoot a .50 TC Hawken, it shoots well with moderate charges behind a round ball for paper and reactive targets and if you want to go after big game a 370 grain Maxi with shoot lengthwise through most critters in North America with a good charge. Also got a .36 Seneca which is real stingy on lead and powder.
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Is there a best caliber for a Hawken style black powder rifle?
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Dutch, you are absolutely correct. I'm just relaying info from that long ago article. I do question whether removing steel from a barrel will reduce harmonics. Another olde timey theory I have heard is the older soft iron barrels absorbed vibrations better than our modern steel ones.
I wanted to share so photos of what I received from Dixie Gun Works- I`m very pleased with the fit, finish and quality of the rifle.
Rifle of course is a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in .54 caliber, possibles bag is October Country, powder horn is homemade from stuff I found on hand.
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Hawken Album
Rifle of course is a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in .54 caliber, possibles bag is October Country, powder horn is homemade from stuff I found on hand.
Hawken Album
Nice looking.
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Beautiful!! We need to start a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Rifle club.
Rifleman 1776,
That thought about older steels vibrating more or less than modern steel is going to have to remain just a theory..
I can't think how one would heck that one out..
It seems like softer steel (?) would be less likely to vibrate as much but all older steels made by different manufacturers would differ from each other and I imagine the same thing would apply to modern steels,
BUT, if they actually were made of a an actually softer steel, I'd bet they vibrated less.
Another stupid question, Would you rather get hit on the head by a bat made of sift wood or one made of a hard wood?
Say, cottonwood as against Ash.
Things to think about.
Dutch
That thought about older steels vibrating more or less than modern steel is going to have to remain just a theory..
I can't think how one would heck that one out..
It seems like softer steel (?) would be less likely to vibrate as much but all older steels made by different manufacturers would differ from each other and I imagine the same thing would apply to modern steels,
BUT, if they actually were made of a an actually softer steel, I'd bet they vibrated less.
Another stupid question, Would you rather get hit on the head by a bat made of sift wood or one made of a hard wood?
Say, cottonwood as against Ash.
Things to think about.
Dutch
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Hi Dutch,
I’m not sure some folks understand what barrel harmonics is and I fully admit it can get confusing for those of us who are not Mechanical Engineers. I am not a Mechanical Engineer, but worked with some of the best for many years while on active duty. I learned the practical application of barrel harmonics, so at the risk of being lashed for heresy by a real Mechanical Engineer, perhaps I could explain some of what I learned.
Barrel Harmonics primarily is how the barrel vibrates from the time the propellant goes off until the projectile is clear of the barrel. The vibration comes mainly from the type and amount of the propellant and to a lesser degree, the type of rifling and the restriction of the projectile as it goes down the barrel. The vibration of the barrel is in a wave pattern as the projectile goes through the barrel.
“Perfect” Barrel Harmonics would be where the projectile leaves the bore at the top or bottom of the wave vibration and there is nothing that causes a disruption of the smooth vibration wave, so it is as uniform/repeatable as possible. It is more important to modern guns with their higher pressures and different types of projectiles, but it is still important to Muzzle Loading Guns. Yeah, I understand, clear as mud”¦”¦
The composition, size and length of the barrel has a lot to do with the smoothest vibration wave in the barrel and whether or not the projectile leaves at the top or bottom of the vibration wave and finally how uniformly the projectile leaves the barrel. So let’s begin there.
Barrels from before the 18th century up through about 1820 were made almost totally from Iron and not Steel, though some few barrels were made of bronze. Black Powder does not cause gas pressure to run as high as more modern propellants, so Iron and Bronze could handle the pressure. Now there were differences in how finely refined the Iron was in different barrels with the least refined Iron went into cheaper Trade Guns. More expensive barrels, where as much as possible of the slag and other impurities in the Iron Ore was removed, were probably the barrels that had the best harmonics. This because the vibration wave in the barrel would not have hit as many impurities in the metal that caused “negative nodes of vibration” compared to other areas of the barrel containing mostly pure Iron.
“Negative Nodes of Vibration” is probably the easiest to understand by giving an example of throwing a rock into a calm body of water. The waves made by the rock hitting the water will be very uniform as they expand outward from where the rock hit the water, until the waves hit something in the water. For example when those waves hit a dock piling, they will actually cause a rebound effect and smaller waves will travel backwards from the dock piling. The stronger the force of the waves from the rock hitting the water and thus the force of the waves hitting the dock piling, the larger the rebound waves will be. In a perfect situation, the waves from the rock hitting the water would not hit anything that caused rebound waves and the same thing goes for barrel harmonics.
OK, the larger or greater mass of the barrel, the more uniform the vibration wave will be in a barrel. Dutch, that is the thinking on why you chose a .45 caliber to have more metal around the bore and thus better barrel harmonics than a larger bore size in the same size barrel. Another example is the HUGE barrels and stocks on slug guns you may have seen at Friendship or other places and that by the size of their barrels ”“ gives less vibration than do smaller barrels.
Of course in the practical world, we have to balance how large our barrels will be because the size of barrels that give the best harmonics would be too heavy to carry much or use for Offhand or hunting situations. The size of Hawken Mountain Rifle barrels and the taper in the overall barrel length, is an example of a practical application of this principle.
Honestly, I don’t see how a tapered and flared barrel will give better harmonics than either a straight barrel or a gently tapered barrel. This because the vibration wave will change more in a tapered and flared barrel. However, a tapered and flared barrel is easier to carry and shoot offhand in a Long Rifle barrel than what a long straight or gently tapered barrel is.
Gus
I’m not sure some folks understand what barrel harmonics is and I fully admit it can get confusing for those of us who are not Mechanical Engineers. I am not a Mechanical Engineer, but worked with some of the best for many years while on active duty. I learned the practical application of barrel harmonics, so at the risk of being lashed for heresy by a real Mechanical Engineer, perhaps I could explain some of what I learned.
Barrel Harmonics primarily is how the barrel vibrates from the time the propellant goes off until the projectile is clear of the barrel. The vibration comes mainly from the type and amount of the propellant and to a lesser degree, the type of rifling and the restriction of the projectile as it goes down the barrel. The vibration of the barrel is in a wave pattern as the projectile goes through the barrel.
“Perfect” Barrel Harmonics would be where the projectile leaves the bore at the top or bottom of the wave vibration and there is nothing that causes a disruption of the smooth vibration wave, so it is as uniform/repeatable as possible. It is more important to modern guns with their higher pressures and different types of projectiles, but it is still important to Muzzle Loading Guns. Yeah, I understand, clear as mud”¦”¦
The composition, size and length of the barrel has a lot to do with the smoothest vibration wave in the barrel and whether or not the projectile leaves at the top or bottom of the vibration wave and finally how uniformly the projectile leaves the barrel. So let’s begin there.
Barrels from before the 18th century up through about 1820 were made almost totally from Iron and not Steel, though some few barrels were made of bronze. Black Powder does not cause gas pressure to run as high as more modern propellants, so Iron and Bronze could handle the pressure. Now there were differences in how finely refined the Iron was in different barrels with the least refined Iron went into cheaper Trade Guns. More expensive barrels, where as much as possible of the slag and other impurities in the Iron Ore was removed, were probably the barrels that had the best harmonics. This because the vibration wave in the barrel would not have hit as many impurities in the metal that caused “negative nodes of vibration” compared to other areas of the barrel containing mostly pure Iron.
“Negative Nodes of Vibration” is probably the easiest to understand by giving an example of throwing a rock into a calm body of water. The waves made by the rock hitting the water will be very uniform as they expand outward from where the rock hit the water, until the waves hit something in the water. For example when those waves hit a dock piling, they will actually cause a rebound effect and smaller waves will travel backwards from the dock piling. The stronger the force of the waves from the rock hitting the water and thus the force of the waves hitting the dock piling, the larger the rebound waves will be. In a perfect situation, the waves from the rock hitting the water would not hit anything that caused rebound waves and the same thing goes for barrel harmonics.
OK, the larger or greater mass of the barrel, the more uniform the vibration wave will be in a barrel. Dutch, that is the thinking on why you chose a .45 caliber to have more metal around the bore and thus better barrel harmonics than a larger bore size in the same size barrel. Another example is the HUGE barrels and stocks on slug guns you may have seen at Friendship or other places and that by the size of their barrels ”“ gives less vibration than do smaller barrels.
Of course in the practical world, we have to balance how large our barrels will be because the size of barrels that give the best harmonics would be too heavy to carry much or use for Offhand or hunting situations. The size of Hawken Mountain Rifle barrels and the taper in the overall barrel length, is an example of a practical application of this principle.
Honestly, I don’t see how a tapered and flared barrel will give better harmonics than either a straight barrel or a gently tapered barrel. This because the vibration wave will change more in a tapered and flared barrel. However, a tapered and flared barrel is easier to carry and shoot offhand in a Long Rifle barrel than what a long straight or gently tapered barrel is.
Gus
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Oh, the other advantage of tapered and flared barrels is they could get more velocity for the projectile/ball using longer barrels and not have as much weight in the barrel.
There is a very old myth that black powder burns throughout the length of the barrel and many people thought it was correct in the 18th century. That’s why they used longer barrels so the powder would burn as much as it would in a barrel. However, the Royal Society of London in the early 1750’s proved that most black powder burned up as much as it would burn, in the first couple inches of the barrel.
What they did not realize in the 18th century and for some of the 19th century was the REAL reason why projectiles/balls traveled faster and “hit harder” with longer barrels. The Gas Pressure does not increase with a longer barrel, but it DOES have a chance to move the ball faster down the barrel after the initial force required to get the PRB or other projectile initially moving. (A real world example would be it takes more force to begin pushing a car to get it to move than it does to keep it moving.) So even though there is less gas pressure as the PRB or projectile goes down the bore, the gas is still accelerating the PRB/Projectile until the PRB/Projectile leaves the muzzle.
So the longer the barrel, the more acceleration and thus the higher velocity when the PRB/Projectile leaves the muzzle.
Gus
There is a very old myth that black powder burns throughout the length of the barrel and many people thought it was correct in the 18th century. That’s why they used longer barrels so the powder would burn as much as it would in a barrel. However, the Royal Society of London in the early 1750’s proved that most black powder burned up as much as it would burn, in the first couple inches of the barrel.
What they did not realize in the 18th century and for some of the 19th century was the REAL reason why projectiles/balls traveled faster and “hit harder” with longer barrels. The Gas Pressure does not increase with a longer barrel, but it DOES have a chance to move the ball faster down the barrel after the initial force required to get the PRB or other projectile initially moving. (A real world example would be it takes more force to begin pushing a car to get it to move than it does to keep it moving.) So even though there is less gas pressure as the PRB or projectile goes down the bore, the gas is still accelerating the PRB/Projectile until the PRB/Projectile leaves the muzzle.
So the longer the barrel, the more acceleration and thus the higher velocity when the PRB/Projectile leaves the muzzle.
Gus
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The best bore will probably be the one you make your go-to-gun.
38 to 40 sounds about right.
38 to 40 sounds about right.
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Very informative as well as educational! Thank you Gus.
Respectfully, Cowboy
Respectfully, Cowboy
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Cowboy, thank you for the kind words and you are most welcome.
Ok, here is some more on Barrel Harmonics.
Some folks like to say that barrel harmonics don’t mean anything to muzzle loading guns at all. While that is somewhat true to up to a point, it is not correct for the overall picture.
Another example of a larger diameter muzzle loading barrel giving better barrel harmonics and more accuracy and even when the barrel was/is shorter, is the difference between “3 Band” or full length Rifle Muskets and the shorter barreled “2 Band” length Rifles. It was well proven during the period by the British Army that the “2 Band” length Enfield Rifles were more accurate than 3 Band length Rifle Muskets not only at short range, but also at long range. This because the “2 Band” length Rifles had larger diameter barrels where the vibration wave is more uniform.
So if one wants a “Minie Ball” rifle gun and wants the best accuracy, then buy the 2 Band Length Rifle. Conversely if one is primarily a reenactor, then it is a great deal better to buy the 3 Band Rifle Musket, but that’s not for accuracy, rather for safety purposes when blank firing in ranks. The 3 Band Rifle Musket used by the folks in the rear rank, gets the muzzle further forward of the faces of the men in the front ranks.
We know from modern rifle barrels that when you really want the best accuracy, you go with large diameter barrels and “free float” most of the barrel so it doesn’t touch most of the wood in the stock. This is so the barrel can vibrate smoothly/uniformly without negative nodes of vibration from touching the stock while the bullet is still in the barrel. Now of course that can’t happen completely with a muzzle loader as it still has to be secured with at least one pin or tennon in the forearm, BUT it still explains why Underhammer Rifles and to a lesser extent, a “Rigby Type” Match Rifle (and similar rifles) are more accurate than most full stocked rifles. The link below shows a photo of a Rigby Match Rifle when one scrolls down the page. https://longrangerifles.wordpress.com/reference/matchriflehistory/
OK, there is no getting around having Negative Nodes of Vibrations in Muzzle Loading rifle barrels, because as mentioned before, the barrel almost always has to be pinned/tennoned in at least one place in the forearm. HOWEVER, we can still use the knowledge of barrel harmonics even here.
What you don’t want is a pin or tennon causing too much pressure on the barrel in one or more spots. That will cause noticeable disruption of the smooth vibrational wave and cause flyers or poor groups or at worse, damage to the stock. Normally too much pressure is not a problem because the pin or even wedges do not put a serious amount of tension in one or more spots of a barrel, but there can be instances of it. For example; if one doesn’t elongate the holes fore and aft in the lugs on pinned barrels, it is possible that when the stock swells with humidity, it will put additional pressure on the barrel at that point and can cause flyers, group changes and cracks in the stock when fired. Same thing for wedge tennon holes.
Of course one huge difference in Barrel Harmonics of Muzzle Loader vs Modern Barrels is that with ML barrels, we do some to much more load development than many modern shooters and especially those who are not hand loaders. By trying different types and amounts of Black Powder in a load, we are changing the gas pressure curve in the barrel and thus are changing barrel harmonics. Our “best” load or loads of powder change the barrel harmonics so the PRB or other projectile is most likely exiting the muzzle at the high or low point of the vibrational wave and where it is the most consistent for accuracy.
Hopefully in my effort to keep a long post as brief as possible, you all will forgive me for leaving out some minor details.
Gus
Ok, here is some more on Barrel Harmonics.
Some folks like to say that barrel harmonics don’t mean anything to muzzle loading guns at all. While that is somewhat true to up to a point, it is not correct for the overall picture.
Another example of a larger diameter muzzle loading barrel giving better barrel harmonics and more accuracy and even when the barrel was/is shorter, is the difference between “3 Band” or full length Rifle Muskets and the shorter barreled “2 Band” length Rifles. It was well proven during the period by the British Army that the “2 Band” length Enfield Rifles were more accurate than 3 Band length Rifle Muskets not only at short range, but also at long range. This because the “2 Band” length Rifles had larger diameter barrels where the vibration wave is more uniform.
So if one wants a “Minie Ball” rifle gun and wants the best accuracy, then buy the 2 Band Length Rifle. Conversely if one is primarily a reenactor, then it is a great deal better to buy the 3 Band Rifle Musket, but that’s not for accuracy, rather for safety purposes when blank firing in ranks. The 3 Band Rifle Musket used by the folks in the rear rank, gets the muzzle further forward of the faces of the men in the front ranks.
We know from modern rifle barrels that when you really want the best accuracy, you go with large diameter barrels and “free float” most of the barrel so it doesn’t touch most of the wood in the stock. This is so the barrel can vibrate smoothly/uniformly without negative nodes of vibration from touching the stock while the bullet is still in the barrel. Now of course that can’t happen completely with a muzzle loader as it still has to be secured with at least one pin or tennon in the forearm, BUT it still explains why Underhammer Rifles and to a lesser extent, a “Rigby Type” Match Rifle (and similar rifles) are more accurate than most full stocked rifles. The link below shows a photo of a Rigby Match Rifle when one scrolls down the page. https://longrangerifles.wordpress.com/reference/matchriflehistory/
OK, there is no getting around having Negative Nodes of Vibrations in Muzzle Loading rifle barrels, because as mentioned before, the barrel almost always has to be pinned/tennoned in at least one place in the forearm. HOWEVER, we can still use the knowledge of barrel harmonics even here.
What you don’t want is a pin or tennon causing too much pressure on the barrel in one or more spots. That will cause noticeable disruption of the smooth vibrational wave and cause flyers or poor groups or at worse, damage to the stock. Normally too much pressure is not a problem because the pin or even wedges do not put a serious amount of tension in one or more spots of a barrel, but there can be instances of it. For example; if one doesn’t elongate the holes fore and aft in the lugs on pinned barrels, it is possible that when the stock swells with humidity, it will put additional pressure on the barrel at that point and can cause flyers, group changes and cracks in the stock when fired. Same thing for wedge tennon holes.
Of course one huge difference in Barrel Harmonics of Muzzle Loader vs Modern Barrels is that with ML barrels, we do some to much more load development than many modern shooters and especially those who are not hand loaders. By trying different types and amounts of Black Powder in a load, we are changing the gas pressure curve in the barrel and thus are changing barrel harmonics. Our “best” load or loads of powder change the barrel harmonics so the PRB or other projectile is most likely exiting the muzzle at the high or low point of the vibrational wave and where it is the most consistent for accuracy.
Hopefully in my effort to keep a long post as brief as possible, you all will forgive me for leaving out some minor details.
Gus
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roadgrader
36 Cal.
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Gus any ideas on how barrel bands play in all this STACEY
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Hi Stacey,
Dave Person recently mentioned the barrel bands on his custom flintlock fowler he built may be part of the reason that smoothbore shoots so accurately with round ball and is not affected by seasonal climate changes in humidity and temperature.
I did not have much personal experience about accuracy with smoothbores that had barrel bands until I joined the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team in 1996 and traveled to the World Championships at Wedgnok, UK.
My own experience from shooting my repro Brown Bess Carbine (with pinned lugs) in the late 70's in competition was I had been well pleased with the accuracy using PRB's in that Carbine.
Since shooting Original Arms has always been at first the only part and later the "premier" part of International Muzzle Loading Competition - I was REALLY looking forward to seeing Original Brown Besses (with pinned lug barrels) being shot in those matches by the British Team and at least the Canadian and Australian Teams.
Well, much to my surprise and disappointment, I don't think anyone was shooting an Original Brown Bess in the "Miquelet Match" for Military smooth-bore flintlock muskets - not even the British Team, who I thought would be using them from a sense of National Pride if nothing else.
U.S. Team Members had already informed me the Springfield "M 1816 Type" Muskets (made as copies of French Military Muskets with barrel bands) were more accurate than the Brown Bess with pinned lugs. I was STUNNED when a couple of members of the British Team asked me if I or any of the U.S. Team had good shootable and original Springfield Muskets for sale. Both of them also informed me they were more accurate than the Brown Bess. In a bit of a shock, I asked why they didn't buy original French Muskets that were less expensive than U.S. Muskets? One said the U.S. Muskets were better (though he did not elaborate how they were better) and the other grinned and informed me he preferred one made in "their old Colonies" compared to those made in France.
Bottom line, smoothbore Muskets with barrel bands were widely if not exclusively believed to be more accurate than smoothbore Muskets with pinned barrels.
However, before anyone thinks I attribute the better accuracy of smoothbore with bands due to the bands vs pinned barrels alone, I have to state I don't have good data to support that.
I would be very interested to see a comparison of barrel wall thickness of Original Brown Bess (pinned barrel) Muskets to Original French/American Springfield Muskets (with barrel bands). I suspect the French/Springfield Muskets may have had thicker barrel walls and especially compared to the size ball each shot, but I just don't know if that is true or not. If true, then that would give better barrel harmonics alone.
Also, if original barrel bands were not fit extremely tight between the barrel and stock, that may or would give the barrel better harmonics on a barrel banded smoothbore.
Further barrel bands with band springs that were intended to keep the bands from slipping forward may also be of help to harmonics. Even the band spring with a pin to hold the forward band to the stock would not have the potential of as much of a negative node of vibration as a pinned barrel lug.
However, I fully admit this has to remain in the realm of speculation about why barrel band muskets were/are more accurate; because there are things I just can't verify, nor am I able to test them with at least some scientific credibility.
Gus
Dave Person recently mentioned the barrel bands on his custom flintlock fowler he built may be part of the reason that smoothbore shoots so accurately with round ball and is not affected by seasonal climate changes in humidity and temperature.
I did not have much personal experience about accuracy with smoothbores that had barrel bands until I joined the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team in 1996 and traveled to the World Championships at Wedgnok, UK.
My own experience from shooting my repro Brown Bess Carbine (with pinned lugs) in the late 70's in competition was I had been well pleased with the accuracy using PRB's in that Carbine.
Since shooting Original Arms has always been at first the only part and later the "premier" part of International Muzzle Loading Competition - I was REALLY looking forward to seeing Original Brown Besses (with pinned lug barrels) being shot in those matches by the British Team and at least the Canadian and Australian Teams.
Well, much to my surprise and disappointment, I don't think anyone was shooting an Original Brown Bess in the "Miquelet Match" for Military smooth-bore flintlock muskets - not even the British Team, who I thought would be using them from a sense of National Pride if nothing else.
U.S. Team Members had already informed me the Springfield "M 1816 Type" Muskets (made as copies of French Military Muskets with barrel bands) were more accurate than the Brown Bess with pinned lugs. I was STUNNED when a couple of members of the British Team asked me if I or any of the U.S. Team had good shootable and original Springfield Muskets for sale. Both of them also informed me they were more accurate than the Brown Bess. In a bit of a shock, I asked why they didn't buy original French Muskets that were less expensive than U.S. Muskets? One said the U.S. Muskets were better (though he did not elaborate how they were better) and the other grinned and informed me he preferred one made in "their old Colonies" compared to those made in France.
Bottom line, smoothbore Muskets with barrel bands were widely if not exclusively believed to be more accurate than smoothbore Muskets with pinned barrels.
However, before anyone thinks I attribute the better accuracy of smoothbore with bands due to the bands vs pinned barrels alone, I have to state I don't have good data to support that.
I would be very interested to see a comparison of barrel wall thickness of Original Brown Bess (pinned barrel) Muskets to Original French/American Springfield Muskets (with barrel bands). I suspect the French/Springfield Muskets may have had thicker barrel walls and especially compared to the size ball each shot, but I just don't know if that is true or not. If true, then that would give better barrel harmonics alone.
Also, if original barrel bands were not fit extremely tight between the barrel and stock, that may or would give the barrel better harmonics on a barrel banded smoothbore.
Further barrel bands with band springs that were intended to keep the bands from slipping forward may also be of help to harmonics. Even the band spring with a pin to hold the forward band to the stock would not have the potential of as much of a negative node of vibration as a pinned barrel lug.
However, I fully admit this has to remain in the realm of speculation about why barrel band muskets were/are more accurate; because there are things I just can't verify, nor am I able to test them with at least some scientific credibility.
Gus
