Is muzzle velocity affected by cap types? (Musket vs #11)

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum:

Red Owl

45 Cal.
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
363
Location
Florida
First- I'm no expert, I am sort of relaying just what I thought but... I took a hunter ed class when I was a kid and the instructor put some modern, smokeless powder on his hand (might have had a glove on- I can't remember) and lit it. Big flare up but no explosion. He then said the "old" black powder was an explosive, if you did the same thing it would blow a hole in your hand- hence black powder being using in mining. etc. In any event, I realize that if you grind up black powder fffg vs ffg you get a faster ignition or "burn rate" but I thought this "burn rate" was still pretty much instantaneous.
I know that in modern reloading a magnum primer might insure better ignition depending on the type of powder you are using. The 454 Casull, they recommend magnum small rifle primers, but...the question at hand is if the same thing applies to black powder? To be honest- I'm not sure. I was thinking that the explosive aspect of black powder meant that a lesser flame or cap ought to do the job okay. I have used Pyrodex but had some issues so I went back to real black powder. In any event once ignited, is there still a "burn rate" with black powder as compared to the various burn rates with modern powders?
 

Africa58double

45 Cal.
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Messages
824
Reaction score
643
Related Side question
I use #11 caps. Had some , running low- picked up more

These are CCI just like I previously used. Yet “Magnum”

Could that make a difference? I highly doubt any chance of change could occur from that slightly different ignition. Since this is Blackpowder and not other modern propellant, a little more spark and maybe? Pressure.
 

Old Hawkeye

45 Cal.
Joined
Mar 14, 2020
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,346
Actually, smokeless powder is an explosive. Black powder burns which is why black powder is available in different grain powder sizes.
Smokeless powder is NOT classified as an explosive. It burns at different rates depending on the powder & additives turning into an expanding gas that pushes the projectile down the barrel. If in a fire & it is not contained it simply burns allowing the expanding gas to dissipate & it does not explode. Cans or bottles for smokeless are designed to "pop" open when in a fire to relieve the gas pressure. Some smokeless powder is even very hard to light with a match. Black powder IS classified as an explosive & burns at a much faster rate taking very little containment to develop large pressure levels. It also ignites at very low temperature compare to smokeless. The different granule size makes for very small changes in burn rate & does nothing to limit it's explosive qualities.
 

dave951

54 Cal.
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
1,680
Reaction score
2,422
This would be an interesting experiment with a chronograph. I don't have one... yet... but through experimentation, I have found that different caps DO affect accuracy. That's why I refuse to use it recommend current production CCI musket caps over RWS or Schuetzen.
 

Africa58double

45 Cal.
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Messages
824
Reaction score
643
Excellent- just bought 1000
I’ve read some mixed reviews. Most speak highly of them.

Between the Swisspowder and Rws Caps… I’ve got premium components for Hunting.
Goex and Cci I guess for Target shooting.

I’ve Pondered moving to Musket caps…. yet No need and difficulty to get I’m sure
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
20,888
Reaction score
16,074
Location
Republic mo
I recall testing in the 1970s and there were differences between German caps, cci, Remington ect. But just about 1%.
Big fad was putting musket nipples on regular guns.
Shooting ball sucks. And little difference at a hundred yards, and not very much more at fifty.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,016
Reaction score
1,415
Location
Trout Country New Zealand
I load 12 ga blanks for training my dogs ,using a used plastic wad firmly seated smokeless makes a poof noise , ½ a teaspoon of black makes a loud bang.
t. I’m awaiting the delivery of some platinum lined nipples,
These rifles which fire conical bullets of any type ,and others like them ,develop higher breach pressures than round ball rifles and tend to burn out nipples fairly quickly , I have had nipples increase in size as I shoot and the shots drop about 1" per shot .My .40 Gibbs would burn out a nipple in 10 shots . Platinum lined nipples last and last and I never had an issue with nipple burn out again .
 

Hiddeninsmoke

32 Cal
Joined
Oct 14, 2021
Messages
35
Reaction score
32
Place a small amount of smokeless powder on an anvil or other hard surface and then hit is with a hammer. When hit, it will detonate which means that it is explosive. Do the same with black powder and when hit with a hammer, nothing happens. It is not an explosive. The high protection requirements for black powder are because it is an accelerant, that is, when exposed to fire it burns very rapidly and very hot. The storage requirements are to reduce risks to property and firemen involved with fires.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2020
Messages
1,787
Reaction score
3,134
Location
Elk Ridge Mountain, Washington County Maryland
Place a small amount of smokeless powder on an anvil or other hard surface and then hit is with a hammer. When hit, it will detonate which means that it is explosive. Do the same with black powder and when hit with a hammer, nothing happens. It is not an explosive. The high protection requirements for black powder are because it is an accelerant, that is, when exposed to fire it burns very rapidly and very hot. The storage requirements are to reduce risks to property and firemen involved with fires.
What kinda smoke are you hidden by? Just tried hammering smokeless powder on an anvil and nothing, figured as much. Tried it on black powder, no pow or flame but what appeared to be a minute amount of smoke and the tale smell of sulfur. The hammer really scatters the pile of powder when striking it. YMMV
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,016
Reaction score
1,415
Location
Trout Country New Zealand
Any velocity change with different makes of caps is minimal and not so important when it is compared with consistency of ignition within a brand of caps or even a tin of caps which contributes to accuracy problems , in my experience some caps , and batches of caps are less than consistent , CCI 11magnum and top hat magnum caps are inconsistent compared with the standard ones . RWS caps , 11 and top hat, are very consistent but their no11's are a mite smaller than some of the others and may need a good push to get them on .
 

Africa58double

45 Cal.
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Messages
824
Reaction score
643
I’d rather have tight fitting, then pinching them do to a fallen off cap previously.

Im looking forward to the Rws and the Swiss powder.

Perhaps better than mag CCI ? I’ve had good experiences with CCI thus far
 

Old Hawkeye

45 Cal.
Joined
Mar 14, 2020
Messages
833
Reaction score
1,346
Place a small amount of smokeless powder on an anvil or other hard surface and then hit is with a hammer. When hit, it will detonate which means that it is explosive. Do the same with black powder and when hit with a hammer, nothing happens. It is not an explosive. The high protection requirements for black powder are because it is an accelerant, that is, when exposed to fire it burns very rapidly and very hot. The storage requirements are to reduce risks to property and firemen involved with fires.
The "Hammer" test??? That's a new one!! So you are saying that the people whose job & responsibility is to classify explosives are all wrong? You couldn't be more misinformed, as Whitworth's "test" confirmed.
 

Danny Ross

40 Cal.
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
441
Reaction score
75
Place a small amount of smokeless powder on an anvil or other hard surface and then hit is with a hammer. When hit, it will detonate which means that it is explosive. Do the same with black powder and when hit with a hammer, nothing happens. It is not an explosive. The high protection requirements for black powder are because it is an Accelerant, that is, when exposed to fire it burns very rapidly and very hot. The storage requirements are to reduce risks to property and firemen involved with fires.

I would beg to differ. You may or may not be old enough to remember toy cap guns. The roll of caps they used, each dot had a small amount of Black Powder to make them work. It was the pressure of the falling hammer of the toy gun that set them off. I miss those days, haven't seen a roll of caps in years. Modern powders are classified as an Accelerant (if memory serves me correctly) not an explosive. Pyrodex, T7, and others are classified the same, not as an explosive but an Accelerant. Do you realize the hoops those who sell real Black Powder have to jump through with the ATF just to store Black Powder in their store because it classified as an Explosive. They have to have a SPECIAL storage magazine to store it in down to the paint it is painted with. The owner of the store I buy Black Powder from said one day the ATF came in and told him If he wanted to to continue selling Black Powder he would have to paint his storage magazine with some special paint before they would reissue his license to sell it. The ATF will show up at a firearms place of business to make sure their storage magazines meets ATF's requirements for Black Powder if they sell it. It is a PIA for them to do it , that is why most don't. Modern Powders as well as Black Powder Substitutes can be sold off the shelf. DANNY
 
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,016
Reaction score
1,415
Location
Trout Country New Zealand
Danny those dots on the roll caps were black but were not black powder . This from Wikipedia: Armstrongs Mixture is often used today as the explosive, but previously the tiny powder charge was a simple mixture of potassium perchlorate, sulfur, and antimony sulfide sandwiched between two paper layers which hold in the gases long enough to give a sound report when the cap is struck.
 

Danny Ross

40 Cal.
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
441
Reaction score
75
Danny those dots on the roll caps were black but were not black powder . This from Wikipedia: Armstrongs Mixture is often used today as the explosive, but previously the tiny powder charge was a simple mixture of potassium perchlorate, sulfur, and antimony sulfide sandwiched between two paper layers which hold in the gases long enough to give a sound report when the cap is struck.

Well if Wikipedia is correct I learned something new, I was always told it was small amounts of fine grain black powder used in those caps. DANNY
 
Top