Is 70 grains 3f enough umph

[Loyalist Dave]

The ONLY times I've not gotten a complete pass through... I had a partially fouled load (I could hear the "BANG" sounded odd) and it stopped on the inside of the skin on the far side of the buck, and when I shot a deer in the shoulder and the ball was stopped by a very large bone.

The other thing I sometimes hear is "the ball stopped in the animal therefore it transferred all of its energy".....
While that is true... if two bullets of the same diameter hit the deer in the same spot, and travel identical paths, the ball with a bit more powder load at the beginning, that exits the animal, delivered as much "energy" as the bullet that stopped. The bullet that exited simply had "more than enough" to do the same "work". The ball that stopped was not "better" and perhaps was worse than the ball that exited.

It's been my observation, albeit only on Midatlantic whitetails, that putting holes on the outside of both sides of the deer from a ball impacting both lungs, puts the deer down better than the ball that stays inside (on a broadside lungs shot). That has been born out by the amount of tracking that I had to do on the one time it happened to me, and on the several occasions when I've had to help other folks find their deer and found the ball didn't pass through on a broadside shot.

LD

 

[azmntman]

70 gr is PLENTY of powder. Load 170 and yer still not at the power of 30-06. SHOT PLACEMENT. If 60 gr is more accurate load 60 and adjust yer sites.

Accurate load first and SHOT PLACEMENT= several crates of small white packages to make you warm and fuzzy inside, like brandy, but lasts years and years

 

[atllaw]

The other thing I sometimes hear is "the ball stopped in the animal therefore it transferred all of its energy".....
... The ball that stopped was not "better" and perhaps was worse than the ball that exited.

Ah Dave... finally!

The way I look at it, one of the variables in the computation of energy is velocity. Velocity decreases rapidly as the ball/bullet traverses the animal's body. Therefore the amount of potential energy the projectile can transfer decreases rapidly also. Especially since the formula for computing energy is weighted heavily in favor of velocity.

Energy transfer can be easily seen in any video of a projectile shot into ballistics gelatin.

Not trying to sound like a know-it-all, this is just my opinion.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Agreed. Energy spent fully in the body is lacking enough energy to properly do the job. Two holes make better tracking for most people.
Walk

 

[ugly old guy]

Range time. You may well find a load that your rifle likes better than 70 grains FFFg behind that patched round ball.
I'd also suggest trying some FFg loads.
Note that in the Thompson Center 'SHOOTING THOOMPSON CENTER SIDELOCK BLACK POWDER GUNS' manual, T/C suggests or recommends the use of FFg or Pyrodex FS grade powder only. They do not give any FFFg loads. The T/C manual mentioned gives a range of 50 to 110 grains FFg for the .50 caliber.

In my .50 caliber CVA "Frontier" rifle, I was using 140 grains of FFg or Fg (depending on what I had on hand) behind a patched .490 round ball. Broomsticks at 100 yards were "an easy kill" with either powder.
My .45 caliber CVA "Kentucky rifle liked 110 grains of FFg or Fg behind a patched .440 round ball. Again, a broom stick at 100 yards were an easy hit.

Neither of my rifles liked FFFg at all, at all. I only used it in may C&B revolvers.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The way I look at it, one of the variables in the computation of energy is velocity. Velocity decreases rapidly as the ball/bullet traverses the animal's body. Therefore the amount of potential energy the projectile can transfer decreases rapidly also. Especially since the formula for computing energy is weighted heavily in favor of velocity. Energy transfer can be easily seen in any video of a projectile shot into ballistics gelatin.

Actually though, the displacement of ballistic gelatin beyond the actual path of the projectile, really only applies to the very high impact speeds one gets with modern ammunition. An excellent rule for traditional black powder projectiles is....
"You can only depend on the damage caused by the actual contact of the projectile with the tissue as it passes through the animal."
As one can see from the chart that is often used, as most of us I'd venture to say are pushing our round balls from our rifles at 1600 fps or less...our loads are going subsonic at 100 yards or even sooner.

LD

 

[Spikebuck]

In my .50 caliber CVA "Frontier" rifle, I was using 140 grains of FFg or Fg (depending on what I had on hand) behind a patched .490 round ball.
My .45 caliber CVA "Kentucky rifle liked 110 grains of FFg or Fg behind a patched .440 round ball.

Neither of my rifles liked FFFg at all, at all. I only used it in may C&B revolvers.

If any of my rifles required 140 grains to be accurate I'd be trading them in. That's a massive load and not necessary for most of the game most of us are likely to hunt. To each his own, but I don't really want to punish myself with that kind of load, nor only get about 1/2 as many shots per pound of powder.

I do have one .54 rifle with a 1-70 twist GM swamped barrel that I have to go as high as 105 gr of 2F to get a tight group and frankly, I don't like it. I intend to start from scratch on a new load workup on that this spring to see what I can do to materially reduce that. Some patch/ball combo at <100 grs will work, I'm sure. I just haven't found it yet.

Most rifles, based on my own observation and those of others here, have at least TWO different loads they like...a light and a heavier load. For the majority of guns, I'm thinking that heavy load is at or under 100 grains...even for 62's.

 

[Zonie]

I think your right Spikebuck, when you said, "Ben, I'm guessing that the lower suggested load for the large Maxi is more due to Investarms wanting to reduce the pressures that a larger projectile will create than anything to help your hunting..."

An example of this is shown in the "Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual".

In one barrel a .490 grain patched roundball over 90 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder created a breech pressure of 7,500 psi. A 370 grain Lyman Maxi over 80 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder created a breech pressure of 13,000 psi.

 

[Critter Getter]

If deer sized game is what you are after then YES 70 grains is good enough if that is an accurate load in your rifle. Greg

 

[Skychief]

If deer sized game is what you are after then YES 70 grains is good enough if that is an accurate load in your rifle. Greg

Just ask Greg how he knows!

 

[Newtire]

I have been hunting with my two 50 cal, TC Hawken and Traditions Kentucky, using 70 grains 3 f for some time. Always seemed right, the rifles like it. However, most of my shots have been under 50 yards. I now hunt where a 75-100 yard shot is not out of the question. Wandering if I need to go back to the range and try a heavier charge for the longer ranges? Shooting PRB, both rifles are 1 in 60, the TC has a Green Mountain replacement barrel.

thanks

Before I owned a chronograph, I used to shoot that load in a .50 T/C Hawken with a 32" Green Mountain barrel. It grouped 3" @ 100 yds. (which was the best I could do with any muzzleloader I had at that time). A couple of guys came up to the range with a chrono and let me put a couple of shots over it. Velocity was 1780-1785 fps using a .490" round ball. Should be plenty good. 80 gr. 2F got about the same speeds.

 

[Mad Irish Jack]

My first gun was an Armsport Arms (VA) .54 cal Hawken 24'bbl. I worked up a 70gr FFg Goex, .530 rb wrapped in a .015 cotton patch. I've worked up heavy loads same powder for 150yd+ reenactment and comp shooting. But the afore mentioned is my everything load (Practice, comp and hunt) with that powder in any .54 cal I've ever owned. I've had a full & 2 half stock Hawkens, 42" Lehigh, a rifle and smoothrifle in Early Lanceasters, and have used the same load combo in them all with great success. I'used a .50 cal, .75 c Bess, .62 cal Tulle and a .50c Lehigh, and harvested deer here in PA with all over my 53 years of hunting. I've had 6 unfilled tags. You use what works....For You!

 

[Britsmoothy]

I think your right Spikebuck, when you said, "Ben, I'm guessing that the lower suggested load for the large Maxi is more due to Investarms wanting to reduce the pressures that a larger projectile will create than anything to help your hunting..."

An example of this is shown in the "Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual".

In one barrel a .490 grain patched roundball over 90 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder created a breech pressure of 7,500 psi. A 370 grain Lyman Maxi over 80 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder created a breech pressure of 13,000 psi.

Respectfully zonie I don't get why the shocked face emoji? 13,000psi in milliseconds is nowt (northern British for nothing)! IIRC a 22 runs at 8000psi (?).

 

[Eric Krewson]

I don't get pass throughs on most of the deer I kill with my flintlocks, the flattened ball will always be under the skin on the far side. I shoot 70gr of 3F in my .44, 80 gr of 2F in my .54 and 100 gr of 1F in my 12 ga fowler with a patched ball. My choice in powder load has everything to do with accuracy for that particular gun and nothing to do with stopping power. Hit them where it counts and they die and die very quickly no matter what load you are shooting.

I have a friend that kills deer after deer with what I would consider very light loads, 35 to 45 gr. He got a pass through on a doe at 90 yds shooting his .40 with about half the powder load I would be shooting.

 

[longcruise]

Stopping under the skin on the far side can be misleading. A heavy load that hits hard and deforms the ball will slow down faster in the animals tissues than a slower moving less deformed ball. Both may be caught by the skin, just depends on how fast they are moving after traversing the width of the animal.

Eric's post shows that clearly.

Here's a real life story that illustrates it.

Couple years ago I tagged my deer first morning. I began helping out other hunters in camp who didn't know their way around. So, two hunters both shooting 54s and balls over 80 grains of goex 2f. First hunter makes a 180 yard shot (not a typo) on a mature doe broadside double lung ball stops under skin. Two days later the second hunter makes the identical hit on a mature doe at 35 yards and the ball stops under the skin also.

What are the chances of having the opportunity to observe this? Pretty slim i guess.

FWIW, my own shot was also a mature doe taken with with a 54 ball over 100 grains of ff at 15 yards. It passed through and it looked like a hose had sprayed the trees behind her with blood!

 

[yellowlab]

70 grns is enough. Its almost equal to 80 of 2F. Shot placement is #1 priority. However "if" you and your gun can maintain accuracy with a faster, flatter shooting ,harder hitting projectile at a longer range." Why not". I know were not shooting long range high power weapons here and the gains with more powder is limited. Is 70 grns your most accurate load or could you safely, accurately, and comfortably use more? This is for hunting not paper punching.

 

[Dr5x]

I have been hunting with my two 50 cal, TC Hawken and Traditions Kentucky, using 70 grains 3 f for some time. Always seemed right, the rifles like it. However, most of my shots have been under 50 yards. I now hunt where a 75-100 yard shot is not out of the question. Wandering if I need to go back to the range and try a heavier charge for the longer ranges? Shooting PRB, both rifles are 1 in 60, the TC has a Green Mountain replacement barrel.

thanks

I keep getting reports that the best charge usually comes down to the Old Timer's rule of a grain and a half of water you are shooting for each caliber. This would put .50'd at 75 grains plus four or five grains more. People who hunt will frequently use a lower charge when shooting targets. I think a hunting rifle should always use the same charge at the range as one
would use when hunting. otherwise unless the accuracy and groups are the same and located in the same place on the paper your aim ghtget a bit confused.
Dutch just a thought, would like opinions.

 

[Dr5x]

I never thought of that, but it makes sense. I hunted with 80gr 2f this season, killed a big doe shot broadside at 42 yds and got a complete pass thru with a .490 PRB. At 125gr, I would have expected another pass thru. I'm no expert in traditional black powder ballistics but it did confuse me originally that, when I was looking at the Investarms manual for my Hawken, it called for max load of 90gr 2f for a .490 round ball but 80gr for a 370gr Maxi ball. Youd think MORE powder would be needed for a heavier projectile. Then the Civil War load was 60gr for a 530gr ball!

When did the French officer Minie invent the mini ball?
I think it was in the 1840's Please correct me on that. It had a short life, very big in the 1860's conflict bur was soon replaced by the essentially shirtless bullet.
A flintlock shooter who feels the use of caps is too modern yet shoots Minie ball type projectiles is a bit confused about time limes..
Dutch

 

[Tanglefoot]

Shot placement is considerably more important than powder charge within reason. Personally, I tend to spend time finding the load my rifles "like" -- each barrel is different in my experience -- and then use that for target, hunting, and so on. My old Leman .50 caliber likes a .495 round ball for it's first load on a cold barrel, pushed by 90 grains of FFg. Group sizes are significantly larger if I load 10 grains more or less than that, so I load that. It works just dandy on deer, on wild hog, and on buffalo. I use the same load in that rifle for target.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

When did the French officer Minie invent the mini ball?
I think it was in the 1840's Please correct me on that. It had a short life, very big in the 1860's conflict bur was soon replaced by the essentially shirtless bullet.
A flintlock shooter who feels the use of caps is too modern yet shoots Minie ball type projectiles is a bit confused about time limes..

The original Minie Ball was in 1846 the base of the bullet had an insert that caused the skirt to flare. This was adopted in France in 1848. This worked but not all that well, it was costly and sometimes not consistent...then in 1855 an American, James Burton, at Harper's Ferry Armory discovered that by simply casting the Minie Ball with a deep pocket in the base, the skirt would flare without the complicated (and more expensive) insert.

LD