Indian made muskets

[paulvallandigham]

Mike is right! A hat, or Sash or shirt, if made of inferior products, is not going to maim or kill you. A poorly made Gun can and will!

I don't mind scrimping on clothing- " That Looks Nice". I think its just foolish to spend good money for a gun that really does NOT " LOOK RIGHT"- unless you have been watching Hollywood movies, and cartoons-- and don't know any better. More importantly, its not SAFE to shoot.

You seem to think the gun you have is " Good Enough" and take the risk of shooting it. That is your decision. I only hope you don't live to regret the choice, and others around you suffer from your decision if it blows during an " event".

You originally asked people's opinions about the Indian Made guns, and they have honestly given you their personal assessments. We tend, as a group, to be a bit more safety conscious here, than what I also experience when I am with other MLers- be they re-enactors, or just people who like to shoot smokepoles.

Please forgive us our prejudice in favor of safer firearms, and those made in America. We know our bias, and we don't lose a lot of sleep over it either. Many of us think those Indian-made guns make nice wall-hangers, and belong in those interior decoration catalogs, rather than in the hands of shooters.

I think you got your answer some time ago. This thread is about " worn out". NO?

 

[kevindj]

Seriously, I am in favor of buying the best you can afford, and maybe stretch a little to get there. I have Indian made guns, and some US made, very fine guns, along with some of my own building. I just hate to see $$$$ keep someone from getting started. Especially knowing that people will or may view their efforts (the gun) as inferior. Just because a person starts with one, does not mean they will stay with it.

Maybe it's where I live, but I do not see affordable, quality muskets around here - ever. I am still very serious in asking where I can find them online or in a catalog. Maybe I just haven't found the right seller. I watch gun broker every day, Track, and a number of online dealers and quality guns start at $1,100 and go up from there.

I am not hostile. But when it comes to the quality of another's gun, only the experienced will pass judgement. The guests and visitors at these events don't usually know a Bess or Charleville from a Trapdoor, and probably won't judge the quality either, unless we make a point of explaning it to them.

My 16 year old has a MTVC 1777 Charleville and is darn proud of it. (actually thi s one is finished quite nicely) The point is - he's out there and reliving history and loving every minute of it. I pitty the guy who pokes fun of his gun - because he will have to deal with dad.

It's not unlike when I go to shoot trap with my aging Remington 1100. I get the stares-down-the-nose from those with their $4,000 specialty guns - then I proceed to shoot circles around them. Sometimes I fee sorry for them because money can't buy ability - just a prettier gun.


Last thought - I have still only seen proof of one failure and appears that it was not the gun.

 

[kevindj]

would anyone care to share their opinions/experience concerning the indian made muskets?

As you can see, there are opinions - you'll just have to form your own - good luck.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Maybe it's where I live, but I do not see affordable, quality muskets around here - ever. I am still very serious in asking where I can find them online or in a catalog. Maybe I just haven't found the right seller. I watch gun broker every day, Track, and a number of online dealers and quality guns start at $1,100 and go up from there.

I think $2500 to $4500 is a reasonable price for a well made gun. Can I afford to own a whole pile of those in that price range and receive immediate gratification? No! But I can afford one every couple of years. I can do it by saving money. The gratification factor is increased 10X when you finally save enough to get a real descent gun instead of a bunch of "make do's".
Besides, why support a bunch of Indians when we can support American small business? You know there aren't a whole lot of American businesses left......

 

[Leatherbark]

I always see these Indian guns as "Muskets" or "Smoothbores"..........I wonder why they dont make rifleguns? Or do they?..............Bob

 

[Mike Brooks]

I always see these Indian guns as "Muskets" or "Smoothbores"..........I wonder why they dont make rifleguns? Or do they?..............Bob

They make their barrels out of thick walled pipe. I doubt they have the equipment to rifle... I'd love to see what they would ship over here representing a Lancaster rifle. :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The gunmakers of 250 years ago DID on occasion make plain rifles, but they were still identifiable as being from the period and area in which they were built. Certain standards were met--they did not look like a caricature of the real thing. This cannot be said of the guns produced in India.

The oft repeated thread counter/P.C. Nazi argument usually pops up much sooner in this sort of discussion. In this discussion in particular, the argument has no basis. One does not need to be a thread counter to realise that these guns aren't even close to representing the guns they claim to be.

What you sense to be hostility is most likely frustration on the part of those of us who have been down this path before. We are not elitists pushing mega dollar guns. We are trying to point out that these are not the best value for the money and lose what little value they have very quickly. And they simply are not even remotely close copies of the guns they are claimed to be.

It is to be hoped that any newcomer reading these posts will come away with the idea that his money is best spent elsewhere--perhaps on a quality used gun--or perhaps waiting and saving up and buying a nicer new gun. We want to encourage newcomers to start with the best equipment they can, not with items that they will be embarrassed to be seen carrying as their knowledge grows.

 

[cal.43]

oh yes it will be not possible for a nation which build atombombs, missile, programing most of your computerstuff to build rifled guns LOL
The problem is the price, those guys copy what you gave them but a highclass work is more expensive than a cheap military musket and who will buy it if it cost only a little bit less than the italianjunk. I have bought a Indianbaker for 325€ thats ok for what I get and it was proofed by the
Proofhouse.

could someone post the link to the cheap american handmade brownbess or Potsdam Musket

 

[Mulebrain]

I currently don't have a Bess, but will get the 2nd version probably. I am thinking of a kit version tho.

The above pics are from a reenactment, and cannot attest to the load, just the manufacture India.

 

[cal.43]

was it proofed by a proofhouse with the proofload or not? As I described before no gun without a legal proof is safe and after a repair or years of use the owner might think about reproofing.

 

[BEP]

Mule Brain,

Just a reminder - the pictures that you posted were from the burst musket that was subsequently sent to White Labs (one of the best respected testing and analytical labs around), and the failure was determined to be due to a bore obstruction - possibly only partial but enough to cause the problem.

Those results were posted on these forums a while back. If anyone doubts or doesn't remember, I'm sure that the "search" feature could help out.

And it should be apparent that nobody here is apt to change their mind any time soon. But I'm not sure that exaggerations are that useful when trying to make a point. "Inletted with a screwdriver" is just wrong. I've seen a dozen or more of these muskets; I would have to rate the inletting better than that found on two newer Pedersoli 2nd Models that I looked at within the last six months.

None of the India-made Besses come with proofed barrels. Just no way to get past that, no matter how we try. And we're fast approaching 100 posts on this thread. This topic always causes quite a reaction.

 

[Mulebrain]

Oh yes I remember that!

I had these photos, and forgot what had caused the catastrophic failure.

I am not trying to beat up on peoples guns, and believe in the freedom to choose.

If many people like them, and they are good shooters more power to them!

I have heard of fit and finish problems on Pedersoli made Bess as well!

 

[Mike Brooks]

But I'm not sure that exaggerations are that useful when trying to make a point. "Inletted with a screwdriver" is just wrong.

Just relating my first hand experience with Indian guns I have actually had in hand and disassembled. Obviously my standards of craftsmanship are some what higher than some other folks. :wink:

 

[Roy]

But I'm not sure that exaggerations are that useful when trying to make a point. "Inletted with a screwdriver" is just wrong.

Just relating my first hand experience with Indian guns I have actually had in hand and disassembled. Obviously my standards of craftsmanship are some what higher than some other folks. :wink:

Not too far off actually. I've had 2 here, don't want to see another one here.

 

[tg]

Well there are ywo knowledgable builders in a row giving their thoughts on the issue, I do wish folks would stop talking about proofing these guns unless they send them to a certified buisness to do so, I think one might easily push these tubing guns whether made in India or here to the edge, I don't like the idea of a newcommer strapping the gun down to a tree and setting it off with a long cord and if it don't blow thinks all is well.

 

[Pigman]

was it proofed by a proofhouse with the proofload or not? As I described before no gun without a legal proof is safe and after a repair or years of use the owner might think about reproofing.

No American made guns have to be proofed!

Foster From Flint

 

[mr.fudd]

Regarding the inletting. It is indeed quite poor. They may not have been inlet with a screwdriver, but they definitely were inlet with a chisel and not too delicately.

I was at a reenactment this weekend, (civil war), and while there I saw a Pedersoli Bess, (not exactly sure why it was there, but I guess they though it was a good place to display a bunch of old guns and reproductions). The inletting on that was pretty poor too. Not quite as bad as on my Indian gun, but for a $1000+ gun I thought it was extremely poor.

Maybe I'm just weird or unreasonable, but for a new gun in the $1000 price range, I expect something very nice.

In the $2500-$4500 price range there's just nothing you could do with a reproduction musket to make it worth that to me. To be honest, a musket in that price range would be less desirable to me because I would be afraid to let it get wet, dirty, muddy or rusty and it's still going to shoot like a musket. It seems to me that a reenactment gun should be one that can be abused a little and shouldn't be a magnet for thieves.

There are guns I wouldn't mind dropping big money on, but a reproduction musket's not one of them.

 

[old ugly]

this may be a dumb questions but i don,t know and would like to know . how does a proof house proof a gun?

 

[Many Klatch]

I'll just add my experience with a Pedersoli Bess Carbine. I participated in a reenactment and didn't realize the blank charges were not going off. When I finally did get the touch hole cleaned out and got the gun to go off I got a surprise. The gun knocked me on my ass and was spinning in the air like something out of a Road Runner cartoon. The recoil was so strong that I got a cut that took 7 stitches to close on my trigger finger from the trigger guard. I'm guessing there was somewhere between 800 and 1,200 grains of 2F in that barrel.

The Bess was unhurt. I have miked the barrel there are no bulges. I have shot it since and won matches with it.

I have complete confidence in the safety of the Italian made Pedersoli Bess. If that had been an Indian made Bess I don't know that I would have come out so well. Oh and I bought it used for $800.

My personal opinion is that you don't want a gun that is borderline safe, you want one that is idiot proof, especially if you are going to be the idiot.

Many Klatch

 

[surrealpillow]

very well, but regardless of where i buy mine from, who do I get to proof it? I suppose I could take it out to the desert and do it myself but it's not something i have the qualifications or desire to do. Nor does it seem like something any of you guys would recommend and I don't blame you.

The fact is I am very new to this sport and safety is my main concern at this point. not so much the exact authenticity of the piece, granted that American made guns will be of a much higher quality. The fact that the only example presented here of an Indian made gun bursting was shown not to be a defect of the barrel makes me feel a bit more confident.

I am not a re-enactor, just an history enthusiest with a love for black powder.(love might be too strong of a word) and logistically i probably wont be able to go shooting with it terribly often as southern California isn't very friendly to gun owners & its a bit of a hike to find anywhere that will let you fire black powder.

I didn't mean to get everyone all worked up over this, and I do appreciate the input from everyone.