Indian made muskets

[TxRambler]

Some day, when my Loyalist Bess is retired and worn out, I will section the barrel, mount and polish the section, and metallurgically evaluate it. I'll get a basic 8 chemistry done and grade the steel for content, inclusions, weld defects (if indeed it is a welded tube), and general steel quality. If available, I will also do this with a generally regarded high-quality steel musket barrel (Italian or US). I can also do this with an old CVA pistol barrel. I don't know when I will be able to, but when I do I will post results and provide some facts one way or the other regarding barrel quality. Well, that is my intention, anyway.

I have done similar work in a lab and am capable of performing and interpreting metallographic analysis. If I can't do the work personnaly (I don't have a lab where I work now), I can get it done and post results. After at least three threads on the subject of Indian barrel quality, I would sure like to see more facts presented.

 

[mr.fudd]

My understanding is that a proof test involves test firing the gun from a distance with an overcharge of powder and shot and assuming that it survives, inspecting the barrel for any damage.

I would imagine that in this day and age that is probably best done with a both a micrometer and an x-ray. You'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable than myself to find out the best procedure, but the point is that you not only want to make sure that your gun survived your proof test, but that it survived undamaged.

Once you've done that you still don't have any kind of guarantee that the gun will never blow up when used appropriately. What you do know is that it didn't blow up once when loaded inappropriately.

 

[cal.43]

No American made guns have to be proofed!

Foster From Flint

That´s not the whole truth outside the U.S. in countrys with prooflaws all guns have to be proofed and if it failed at the proofhouse I don´t care about the yunk. No man made tool or maschine is safe because of the place it was builded.

 

[Darkgael]

I make a point of reading through these threads, posts and ripostes about the quality of foreign made BP firearms. Usually, the arms in question are made in India.
I haven't learned anything new in a long time. I have read about and seen the pictures of the one Indian gun that we know blew up; everytime, on any forum, when someone asks the question "have you ever seen an Indian ML blow up?", THAT picture shows up. It doesn't prove a whole lot. Heck, I've been at ranges when guys have blown up Glocks, Remingtons, Kimbers. (one of each). Does that mean that those guns are unsafe? A guy on another forum the other day posted that he had blown up his Beretta 92. Berettas are unsafe?
I get the impression that many of those who criticize the firearms in question have never been nearer to one than a picture (maybe not YOU but that other guy, the one who just posted).

Buy American. I buy American when I can afford to and when American manufacturers make what I am looking for. My Fowler is American made. My Lyman - I don't think so. The Navy Arms SXS - Italian (Is there an American made BP SXS?). The little H&R Huntsman 12 ga. I believe is made here. The CVA that I bought thirty years ago - where were they making guns then? A Pietta six shooter (is there an American made 1858 New Army?) And two from Middlesex - a Howdah and a recent Blunderbuss. I suppose that I could have someone make a SXS smoothbore pistol for me - could I afford it? Probably not. I'm sure that it would be nice, beautiful and, for sure, have a better trigger. Would it be safer? I don't know. And from what I read, no one else does either, all opinions considered. (time for that picture to show up).
As it turns out, the little Howdah (about $250 less than the Pedersoli and smaller) is nicely finished if a bit bright on the metal work. The trigger I can fix.
The blunderbuss - metal very bright - the wood work is fine. It's a clunky gun; BBs are clunky guns. Trigger OK. Patterns are good. I could afford it NOW. There is an American BB available - I will save for it (Sitting Fox makes one for about $800). Meanwhile, I'll enjoy this one.
Pete

 

[Mike Brooks]

It's a clunky gun; BBs are clunky guns.

Originals aren't.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

was it proofed by a proofhouse with the proofload or not? As I described before no gun without a legal proof is safe and after a repair or years of use the owner might think about reproofing.

No American made guns have to be proofed!

Foster From Flint

Uncle Pig, how many more times are you going to bring up that red herring? It means nothing to anyone that knows anything about the American laws pertaining to liability. In today's legal climate no one who can be reached by American law can squirm out of liability and American made barrels had better be safe, if not an injured shooter (or his/her family) and a sharp attorney can get a VERY large settlement from the barrel maker if it can be shown that the barrel or the material it was made from is not safe. The Indian made barrels do not even have the touch hole drilled. They are not intended to be shot. Some vendors plainly say in their sales information:

"As with all our other flintlock black powder muzzleloaders, the vent is not drilled so we can ship easily to your door throughout North America and to Europe and the UK." http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket17.htm

A nice excuse for not shipping a shootable musket, isn't it? In other words, by American and Eropean law, these are not guns. And here is the killer:

Non-firing State

We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state. http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket13.htm

American law has no effect on the Indian "gunmakers", they are out of the reach of American courts and the vendor is covered by the above statements. I'm sorry, but these "Elmer Fudd" guns (and that's being polite, especially when looking at their so-called US M1795 musket repop) are, at best, questionable - American made barrels are not.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It's a clunky gun; BBs are clunky guns.

Originals aren't.

Pete, I agree with Mike, have you never seen or handled an original Brown Bess? Or any of the original French muskets?

 

[Darkgael]

No, I have not handled a Brown Bess. I was not referring to a Brown Bess.
The BB in my post, pursuant to the personal experience to which I was referring, was meant to mean BlunderBuss.
Sorry if you thought that I meant something else.
As far as blunderbusses go, I've read through James Forman's "The Blunderbuss: 1500-1900" and I'll stand by my comment. The one that I have is pretty much the twin of the military model pictured in Fig.16 on page 15 of that study.
Pete

 

[kevindj]

The Indian made barrels do not even have the touch hole drilled. They are not intended to be shot.

MTVC guns all come with vent drilled and owners manual suggesting loads. They even mic the barrel and inform you of the exact bore size. My 1777 Charleville barrel is .688 and shoots fine. My Baker is .619, Bess is .751 and they too shoot fine. All the rest have similar information with them and they all shoot fine.

I agree with an earlier post that not many minds will be changed.

Another post indicated 'not wanting to be embarrased by carrying one of THOSE guns' is a perfect example of an elitest attitude. That's the kind of remark that shys some folks away form getting involed.

When I can afford a Mercedes, I will buy one. Until then I will drive my Chevy.

I absolutely mean no disrespect for those arguing on the 'buy quality' and buy 'American' side of this discussion. In fact many of them make a living building and selling American made guns. The truth is I agree with them, (and here it comes ) BUT, how many reenactors would be absent from the ranks if we dissallowed Indian made guns from reenacting? Many of them are NEVER shot with anything but powder.

Those of us who shoot ball and shot, and are avid cartidge reloaders, know that you start with a reduced load and check for signs of excess pressure. If you don't do that you are a fool and should not be allowed to have ANY gun in public.


Also, if we could seperate 'fit and finish' from 'saftey', we may change the tone of the discussion.

 

[Roy]

Also, if we could seperate 'fit and finish' from 'saftey', we may change the tone of the discussion.

He did ask about both safety and quality

 

[musketman]

Since this topic is long, lets all take a look at the opening question again.

would anyone care to share their opinions/experience concerning the indian made muskets? viz. loyalistarms, mvtc, Etc. as i'm about to buy my first m/l (a matchlock) and am questioning the safety and quality. or perhaps there is another manufactuer/supplier of these sorts within the affordable range (about $1,000 or less..) someone might recommend? I appreciate the info; i'm new to this forum and black-powder in general.

 

[kevindj]

Good point Musketman,

I think opinions were offered on all the questions, except finding a high quality gun for under $1,000, although a good used one may surface.

We also wandered to Besses and Bakers when he is after a match lock.

It's good to have moderators!

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Maybe giving John Buck a call at 434-724-1607 would get him started down the right path.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You can't always seperate fit and finish from safety. If the maker takes no pride in how his product looks, he quite possibly will not take any pains to see that it is safe, either. A good example would be some of the very early imports where the resemblance to historic weapons was vague at best, and barrels sometimes were drilled off center on a diagonal to the point that there was no way to sight them in--even if they would hold together long enough to do so. Ill fitted breech plugs, welded in breech plugs, if there was a way to cut costs they found it. And it showed. Just as it shows on the guns we are discussing. The man who buys by price alone is the just prey of the seller of such merchandise and in all fairness can only complain to the man in the mirror. And if he is not embarrassed by the cartoonish aspects of his gun as his knowledge increases, then he is either oblivious or wonderfully thick skinned--particularly in the area of his head--and historical accuracy is but the foggiest of concepts to him. There is nothing elitist in this view, only a desire to see history receive the respect it deserves. Given the relatively small differences in cost these days between these guns and a nice used correct gun or a quality kit, there is no real reason to send hard earned money overseas for third rate products.

Anyone who would go to a serious re-enactment with one of these and not be able to see the difference between the quality of the India built gun and a carefully crafted replica of the same piece would probably be just as happy with a Super-Soaker and still think it was Period Correct for The F&I period! :v

 

[Mulebrain]

Since this topic is long, lets all take a look at the opening question again.

would anyone care to share their opinions/experience concerning the indian made muskets? viz. loyalistarms, mvtc, Etc. as i'm about to buy my first m/l (a matchlock) and am questioning the safety and quality. or perhaps there is another manufactuer/supplier of these sorts within the affordable range (about $1,000 or less..) someone might recommend? I appreciate the info; i'm new to this forum and black-powder in general.

I guess a moderator should have moved this over to the pre flintlock section then! :rotf:

I guess everyone missed something!

 

[mastrsgt]

:dead:

 

[BEP]

Jeeze, Mulie, does this mean that we have to do it all over again??????????? :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Can we? Lets! It's always so much fun! And we always resolve so many questions about these miraculous and astonishing bargains from a land faraway! :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I noticed that too, but everyone was having so much fun and I didn't want to spoil the party!

 

[musketman]

I noticed that too, but everyone was having so much fun and I didn't want to spoil the party!

This topic has seem to ran its course and nothing new is added, so I guess I'll be the one to spoil the party. :grin: