Indian Made Muskets ?

[Trot]

They sell them because there are people who want prop-guns or blank firing only guns. Remington and Smith & Wesson once sold starter pistols... it didn't make the guns they sold to actually fire unfireable.

The muskets that I've bought came ready to fire, including the flash deflector that are required for reenactment pieces. They also came with a ball and a fuze and instructions to perform a personal test if the buyer wished to do so. Sounds like evidence that they are intended to be fired.



Well first, I'd like to see the documentation, like a newspaper or newsletter article that names the maker and the model, and if the one you claim in England had been proofed in England, then did the barrel fail or did the user screw it up? Even Italian musket barrels aren't proofed against stupid.

Second, my quote is "India parts flintlock muskets", not rifles or rifled muskets nor pistols etc, and it was not quite precise I admit, because I should've specified the vendors, BUT since you're not accurate in what you wrote, then you can't blame me either.

To date, there is ONE documented India parts musket used by a reenactor in the USA or Canada, that bugled and split a barrel when firing, and it was firing a blank. It was an MVTC musket and it was sent to an independent lab, and the user made an error, which can happen even to Italian muskets. I've asked many time for people who claim to "know" of other failures, to provide documentation, or at least to put me in touch with those that may have it....,

Still waiting for that information too....

LD

Several years ago I was debating getting an India built musket so I did a lot of searching on the safety of them. I did find 5 that had barrel failures. I only have "evidence" of three now, I have lost it on the other two. The cause of the most famous Brown Bess incident was never proven, but an obstruction was suspected. I don't know on the others, user error? Quite possible, even likely on some. There was one pistol posted on one of the muzzleloading boards I frequented that developed a crack at the rear of the barrel after pretty extensive use by an experienced shooter. That one I have to believe was not user error. I was also able to find one Italian musket that had a failure at that time. I just decided to go in another direction myself. I have been considering a Loyalist matchlock, no worries about frizzen or lock springs! I haven't heard of any problems recently though myself. A Cautionary Tale About Indian Repros - British Militaria Forums (tapatalk.com) , Blown Musket Barrel | Reenactors Forum - Join, Drill, See the Elephant (civilwartalk.com) , India Made Lorenz "Explodes" at BGA Gettysburg | Reenactors Forum - Join, Drill, See the Elephant (civilwartalk.com)

 

[FlinterNick]

Several years ago I was debating getting an India built musket so I did a lot of searching on the safety of them. I did find 5 that had barrel failures. I only have "evidence" of three now, I have lost it on the other two. The cause of the most famous Brown Bess incident was never proven, but an obstruction was suspected. I don't know on the others, user error? Quite possible, even likely on some. There was one pistol posted on one of the muzzleloading boards I frequented that developed a crack at the rear of the barrel after pretty extensive use by an experienced shooter. That one I have to believe was not user error. I was also able to find one Italian musket that had a failure at that time. I just decided to go in another direction myself. I have been considering a Loyalist matchlock, no worries about frizzen or lock springs! I haven't heard of any problems recently though myself. A Cautionary Tale About Indian Repros - British Militaria Forums (tapatalk.com) , Blown Musket Barrel | Reenactors Forum - Join, Drill, See the Elephant (civilwartalk.com) , India Made Lorenz "Explodes" at BGA Gettysburg | Reenactors Forum - Join, Drill, See the Elephant (civilwartalk.com)

The Brown Bess that exploded was in a group near where I‘m from. From what I know the charge was an overload to begin with, at least 120 grains. The guns were poorly cleaned, set that aside the gun shouldn’t have exploded still.

From the Indian guns I’ve looked at, sometimes the boring isn’t done correctly and there are choke points along the interior, I’m not sure if this is a DOM flaw but it could lead to a ‘bulge’ and undo the DOM seam.

One Indian made gun I know a fella looked at had a tapered like bore which measured from .73 at the breach to .689 at the bore, this is ok for blanks but could cause issues with Poor cleaning.

 

[FlinterNick]

Several years ago I was debating getting an India built musket so I did a lot of searching on the safety of them. I did find 5 that had barrel failures. I only have "evidence" of three now, I have lost it on the other two. The cause of the most famous Brown Bess incident was never proven, but an obstruction was suspected. I don't know on the others, user error? Quite possible, even likely on some. There was one pistol posted on one of the muzzleloading boards I frequented that developed a crack at the rear of the barrel after pretty extensive use by an experienced shooter. That one I have to believe was not user error. I was also able to find one Italian musket that had a failure at that time. I just decided to go in another direction myself. I have been considering a Loyalist matchlock, no worries about frizzen or lock springs! I haven't heard of any problems recently though myself. A Cautionary Tale About Indian Repros - British Militaria Forums (tapatalk.com) , Blown Musket Barrel | Reenactors Forum - Join, Drill, See the Elephant (civilwartalk.com) , India Made Lorenz "Explodes" at BGA Gettysburg | Reenactors Forum - Join, Drill, See the Elephant (civilwartalk.com)

Part of the problem is people using too heavy of a charge in Indian made smoothbores, Personally I would never go over 80 grains on an Indian made musket but some fellas like a heavy charge.

 

[nightwolf1974]

One should use common sense when firing ANY black powder firearm....that said if people try to make magnums out of any BP gun, you're asking for trouble. I shoot my replicas with mediocre loads, whether they are revolvers, single shot pistols, muskets, or rifles.

 

[Rudall]

One Indian made gun I know a fella looked at had a tapered like bore which measured from .73 at the breach to .689 at the bore, this is ok for blanks but could cause issues with Poor cleaning.

I assume you meant .689 at the muzzle.
How would the measurement at the breech be taken?

 

[FlinterNick]

I assume you meant .689 at the muzzle.
How would the measurement at the breech be taken?

Unbreech the gun, measure with a long caliber down the breech about 4 inches, but the fella I blelieve was Bobby Hoyt who reviewed the barrel, and he can do measure that numerous ways And advised on either shooting blanks or reaming out the bore, however that was not done And the owner had a new barrel copied with a correct bore.

 

[Rudall]

Ah. You made it sound very casual, so I thought that your ‘fella’ hadn’t gone to such extreme measures.

 

[FlinterNick]

Ah. You made it sound very casual, so I thought that your ‘fella’ hadn’t gone to such extreme measures.

Well, there was the purchase and the guy feared that the barrel would fail based On these forums, so there was a natural fear, I recommended Bobby Hoyt (not ed Rayl, because you might be dead when you hear from him). Bobby gave it a poor review and the work was more expensive so the guy just got a new barrel from Bobby.

 

[rembrandt78737]

I have two Indian pistols (with a third on the way) and an Indian Brown Bess. Zero complaints, although the firearms finished by loyalist Arms out of Canada are superior to the one from veteran arms. The loyalist finished firearms are fast shooters with an almost imperceptible lag between pan ignition and main charge ignition. Took the Bess to a shoot with nothing but pedersolis and American made muzzleloaders and everyone seemed impressed with it. They had heard all the baseless negative reviews and thought the reality of seeing one was nothing like they expected. There is a lot of BS posted on the internet about everything. Indian guns are not an exception. Condemning things thru ignorance is never an admirable trait. I’ve actually seen more pedersolis and American muzzleloaders with quality concerns than I have Indian guns. All depends who finishes them. I recommend Loyalist arms highly.

 

[FlinterNick]

I have two Indian pistols (with a third on the way) and an Indian Brown Bess. Zero complaints, although the firearms finished by loyalist Arms out of Canada are superior to the one from veteran arms. The loyalist finished firearms are fast shooters with an almost imperceptible lag between pan ignition and main charge ignition. Took the Bess to a shoot with nothing but pedersolis and American made muzzleloaders and everyone seemed impressed with it. They had heard all the baseless negative reviews and thought the reality of seeing one was nothing like they expected. There is a lot of BS posted on the internet about everything. Indian guns are not an exception. Condemning things thru ignorance is never an admirable trait. I’ve actually seen more pedersolis and American muzzleloaders with quality concerns than I have Indian guns. All depends who finishes them. I recommend Loyalist arms highly.

Its not baseless to say that Indian made arms are inferior in quality, there’s truth to that statement.

I’m not all in on the pipe bomb thing but the quality control of indian made guns just isn’t as high as an Italian model.

They’re cheaper for a reason and its not because they’re higher quality.

 

[toot]

The Brown Bess that exploded was in a group near where I‘m from. From what I know the charge was an overload to begin with, at least 120 grains. The guns were poorly cleaned, set that aside the gun shouldn’t have exploded still.

From the Indian guns I’ve looked at, sometimes the boring isn’t done correctly and there are choke points along the interior, I’m not sure if this is a DOM flaw but it could lead to a ‘bulge’ and undo the DOM seam.

One Indian made gun I know a fella looked at had a tapered like bore which measured from .73 at the breach to .689 at the bore, this is ok for blanks but could cause issues with Poor cleaning.

I found that many years ago when I did reenacting that when many of them after the event, just took the gun's home till the next event. a recipe for disaster down the road. it is said that I only shoot blank charges in it. I that I would shoot 150 GRS, of 3FG. to get a real bang. I also cleaned it after every event.

 

[FlinterNick]

I found that many years ago when I did reenacting that when many of them after the event, just took the gun's home till the next event. a recipe for disaster down the road. it is said that I only shoot blank charges in it. I that I would shoot 150 GRS, of 3FG. to get a real bang. I also cleaned it after every event.

I have no idea how anyone could go without cleaning their muskets for days weeks or months at a time. Its the equivalent of never changing out the oil In your car or bike.

Pitting can most certainly open a void in a musket barrel.

 

[toot]

FlinterNick, you are so right! I am speaking from experence. I hate to say it but they are slobs when it comes to cleaning it & spending, $1200. for it. and still they don't want to get there whites dirty. leather buffed white. that is the nature of the beast. I used to ask how it shoo live fire, and they would say I have never shot it live fire, it is only for shooting blanks.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I found that many years ago when I did reenacting that when many of them after the event, just took the gun's home till the next event. a recipe for disaster down the road. it is said that I only shoot blank charges in it. I that I would shoot 150 GRS, of 3FG. to get a real bang. I also cleaned it after every event.

Its not just many years ago, but even recently. I would take it upon myself to be the inspector of the muskets for firing. You can drop a steel ram rod, small end down a barrel and it will "ping" as the thin end of the rod hits the breech plug. I would demonstrate that I would put a cleaning jag on my ram rod with a wet patch and the weight of the rod would push the jag to the breech. Virtually none of the other muskets would move at all. Not until the rod with a jag could easily slide down the barrel would I pass the musket as ready for use. We had several members who had very clean muskets on the outside, but the bores were never touched until I did my inspection. There were a lot of grumbles to be sure, but all I had to do was pull out the pictures of the blown up musket and attitudes would change.

 

[FlinterNick]

Its not just many years ago, but even recently. I would take it upon myself to be the inspector of the muskets for firing. You can drop a steel ram rod, small end down a barrel and it will "ping" as the thin end of the rod hits the breech plug. I would demonstrate that I would put a cleaning jag on my ram rod with a wet patch and the weight of the rod would push the jag to the breech. Virtually none of the other muskets would move at all. Not until the rod with a jag could easily slide down the barrel would I pass the musket as ready for use. We had several members who had very clean muskets on the outside, but the bores were never touched until I did my inspection. There were a lot of grumbles to be sure, but all I had to do was pull out the pictures of the blown up musket and attitudes would change.

Its also a personal investment with these muskets, keeping them clean will always increase the intrinsic value of the gun for resale. Even with a busted stock a clean bore goes a long way.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Not to mention the fact that when you keep the musket clean, it will fire. The impressive view of a line of infantry firing their muskets looses the awesome factor when half of them fail to fire.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
This stuff gets debated endlessly and posts always vary between India-made guns are junk with problems and they are as good as the other options and I've had no problems. Individually, those comments are not very useful but taken as a collection of data, the take away is buying one entails a more than trivial risk that you will get a lemon. They are popular because of price and variety offered but they still cost $500-600. That sum is not trivial to me. Now it used to be that if you shelled out about double that, you could get a Pedersoli that was a reliable shooter with very small risk of a lemon although still not historically correct. However, now I am not so sure that is true anymore. The new Pedersolis I've seen have terrible inletting and stock shaping. The ugly truth is that even if you pay upwards of $2000 for a custom made musket, you may get a better made gun but not necessarily a historically correct one unless the maker knows his stuff and pays attention to details. Getting back to the OP's original question, I do not worry about India-made guns blowing up. I do worry that the locks are sometimes not properly made and potentially unsafe. I've repaired about 10 of them sold by both MVTC and Loyalist Arms that needed remedial work to make them operate properly and on some, safe. But then, I repaired some Pedersoli Bess locks that were disasters too. If you don't want to buy a well made version from a knowledgeable custom maker, I would say it is a toss up between India-made Besses and Pedersolis at this point, although the Pedersolis are generally better made and finished. You'll have a higher risk of a lemon with the India-made guns mainly because the locks are generally inferior to the Pedersolis but Pedersoli can also produce some horrible locks. Below are photos show some worst cases that I've encountered. The first set is from an India-made gun sold by MVTC as their Ketland Officer's fusil:

The next group shows a well made and accurate copy of a British pattern 1760 light infantry carbine first and then the India-made version below:

The next group show lock components of one India-made lock I worked over:

But then there is Pedersoli:

Here is what the lock mortice of a real Bess looks like. Note the thin lock moldings:

dave

 

[rembrandt78737]

Its not baseless to say that Indian made arms are inferior in quality, there’s truth to that statement.

I’m not all in on the pipe bomb thing but the quality control of indian made guns just isn’t as high as an Italian model.

They’re cheaper for a reason and its not because they’re higher quality.

I’m not saying that the quality and finishing rivals more expensive guns. I’m saying that they aren’t the unsafe death traps people make them out to be. They are more a “working man’s gun”. The Volkswagen Beetle of muzzleloaders. If you buy from one of the better finishers out there, the unsafe guns get weeded out before you get them. The unsafe SHOOTERS they have no control over. Maybe the lower price attracts more morons, I don’t know. A ninja moron can turn even a $5000 custom into a grenade.

I needed a few muzzleloaders that could take some abuse and that I wouldn’t cry over every scratch. The Indian made pieces fit the bill perfectly. Sometimes these forums sound like a bunch a stuffy Cadillac owners disparaging the lowly VW Beetle (hence the previous analogy). But they fill a need.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m not saying that the quality and finishing rivals more expensive guns. I’m saying that they aren’t the unsafe death traps people make them out to be. They are more a “working man’s gun”. The Volkswagen Beetle of muzzleloaders. If you buy from one of the better finishers out there, the unsafe guns get weeded out before you get them. The unsafe SHOOTERS they have no control over. Maybe the lower price attracts more morons, I don’t know. A ninja moron can turn even a $5000 custom into a grenade.

I needed a few muzzleloaders that could take some abuse and that I wouldn’t cry over every scratch. The Indian made pieces fit the bill perfectly. Sometimes these forums sound like a bunch a stuffy Cadillac owners disparaging the lowly VW Beetle (hence the previous analogy). But they fill a need.

To each his own on the care they provide to their guns. I only own one custom gun, I spent 1500 on it, its an 1803 rifle.

Custom guns don’t have to cost up to 5k, a Brown Bess kit assembled is expensive because of the work, its a hard kit.

Or

you can learn about the guns, do some research and build it yourself, there’s a lot of options, the cheap way out isn’t always the best way out.

I owned a Miroku bess which I thought was a great shooter but crappy in regards to the stock and brass. But well worth the $700.

I’ve never owned a pedersoli only because I can’t convince myself to buy one, the quality is there in a pedersoli or as Dave pointed out some pedersoli quality is lower which Is right, I own a Charleville by pedersoli which has gaps and flaws but overall Its a great shooter and the lock is wthat i would call very good.

 

[Griz44Mag]

For those who (like me) are not able to spend a couple of thousand the Indian guns are a viable option.
I got mine second hand, from a member here.
No - it is not as nice as a $2,000 gun.
A Corolla is not as nice as a Cadillac, which is not as nice as a Mercedes, which is not as nice as a Ferrari.
You don't drive a Corolla like you would a Ferrari.
Common sense dictates that if you buy a cheaper alternative that you would not try and load it like a cannon.
I have put hundreds of rounds through my MSV Bess. It works great, it is reliable and for a smoothbore it is accurate with a patched round ball.
It really likes 75gr of 2F and a .735 patched ball.
When a person loads 100 grains (or more) in a Bess and then complains that it failed? Offer that person a Darwin.
Use common sense.
If the less expensive alternatives were not available many of us would not own anything at all.
Again, use common sense. If you abuse your Ferrari it too will eventually fail.