India-made flintlocks

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Sidney Smith

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You guys can hawk up India made crap all you want. I'll buy American first, any other country but India second, and made in India, never! I value quality, and am willing to pay for it. Best of all I like American made guns made by a guy I'm pretty fond of.... Me!
 

sturmkatze

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You guys can hawk up India made crap all you want. I'll buy American first, any other country but India second, and made in India, never! I value quality, and am willing to pay for it. Best of all I like American made guns made by a guy I'm pretty fond of.... Me!
Well, that's keen. You buy one of your own. As you know, there are no American-made production muskets. Don't say bs like rifle shoppe or track (track doesn't even have the bess on their site right now) as they take years to get a pile of rough cast parts that the average person cannot really put together right.

Reenactors need a gun. Guess who fills that roll. It's nice to be rich and buy whatever you want. Most of us can't. As a reenactor, I know what it's like to eat ramen and peanut butter for a week to buy the helmet you need. They fill a hole that is there.
 

sturmkatze

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I also like quality made items, but we (USA) are not the only ones that make quality items. India?, that could be a problem. But a country that can make fighter jets & nukes is certainly capable of making a decent flintlock. Makes you wonder some times ,why they don't?
Because they are small cottage industries. If you do a lot of ground work and hold them to exact standards, you can do okay. We were going to have some long lands made. I know a company, but between the oversight I had to do AND dealing with idiot Karen customers, I said "eff it". Not worth my trouble and stress.
 
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I wonder how many members have India made muskets in their collection and would they buy another India made musket? Let’s see what the consensus is?
My India-made Bess was owned by a guy who used to be the George Washington figure in the annual Crossing the Delaware event at Washington Crossing, PA. (I also have a Peder. kit Bess). It's probably from the Bi-Centennial era, and is really nice! Yes, a bit 'chubby' and solid, but I wouldn't be hesitant to shoot it live at all, tho I never have with this particular one.
 
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Well, that's keen. You buy one of your own. As you know, there are no American-made production muskets. Don't say bs like rifle shoppe or track (track doesn't even have the bess on their site right now) as they take years to get a pile of rough cast parts that the average person cannot really put together right.

Reenactors need a gun. Guess who fills that roll. It's nice to be rich and buy whatever you want. Most of us can't. As a reenactor, I know what it's like to eat ramen and peanut butter for a week to buy the helmet you need. They fill a hole that is there.
Amen!
 

cebusey

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You guys can hawk up India made crap all you want. I'll buy American first, any other country but India second, and made in India, never! I value quality, and am willing to pay for it. Best of all I like American made guns made by a guy I'm pretty fond of.... Me

You guys can hawk up India made crap all you want. I'll buy American first, any other country but India second, and made in India, never! I value quality, and am willing to pay for it. Best of all I like American made guns made by a guy I'm pretty fond of.... Me!
Calling items crap which you likely have never owned and likely never handled is pretty sad - no room for a healthy and beneficial discussion to the site. You stick to your favorites and I will enjoy my 200 year old crap
 

sturmkatze

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I wish there were more positive guys who would help the new guy who only had money for a gun made in the sub-continent.

No one makes a decent kit. Pedersolis are butta*s expensive and, as we see from Meister Dave Person, have huge problems. What to do? Maybe if we flood Jim Kibler with requests, he'll do one? Still pricey, but then worth it.

No, most are stuck with an India gun. Hate it or love it. Too bad somone doesn't do a how-to article to help them. You can snarkily say "Indian guns is junk, ahm's don't like 'em. Blah, blah, blah". Then, throw in some of the quasi-racist comments that the "heroes of thought" like to add, wink, wink. We have enough of that garbage. You ain't helping." You're hurting your fellow and the hobby.

Unless you're a reenactor, you don't need such an accurate musket. Our brethren do. HOW can this be fixed. Don't say "buy custom" because we know many (most) cannot afford that. Don't even say it, because you are hindering the hobby. How about some helpful ideas?
 
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Rock Home Isle

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You guys can hawk up India made crap all you want. I'll buy American first, any other country but India second, and made in India, never! I value quality, and am willing to pay for it. Best of all I like American made guns made by a guy I'm pretty fond of.... Me!
Economics…fairly good quality Kit Gun. Wonderful introductory firearm for someone just getting into the hobby, or the occasional weekend warrior
 

sportster73hp

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I wish there were more positive guys who would help the new guy who only had money for a gun made in the sub-continent.

No one makes a decent kit. Pedersolis are butta*s expensive and, as we see from Meister Dave Person, have huge problems. What to do? Maybe if we flood Jim Kibler with requests, he'll do one? Still pricey, but then worth it.

No, most are stuck with an India gun. Hate it or love it. Too bad somone doesn't do a how-to article to help them. You can snarkily say "Indian guns is junk, ahm's don't like 'em. Blah, blah, blah". Then, throw in some of the quasi-racist comments that the "heroes of thought" like to add, wink, wink. We have enough of that garbage. You ain't helping." You're hurting your fellow and the hobby.

Unless you're a reenactor, you don't need such an accurate musket. Our brethren do. HOW can this be fixed. Don't say "buy custom" because we know many (most) cannot afford that. Don't even say it, because you are hindering the hobby. How about some helpful ideas?
Talked to Jim over the weekend. Can’t get a Definite date on a fouler yet he says 6 months his crew say a year. I don’t see him making one at all but i would be on an ordering list if he did!
 

sturmkatze

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Talked to Jim over the weekend. Can’t get a Definite date on a fouler yet he says 6 months his crew say a year. I don’t see him making one at all but i would be on an ordering list if he did!
Right. I'm guessing it would take a concentrated letter campaign and deposits to buy from a lot of people. Dunno. Even a decent repro brown bess stock would help. I'm not dropping $500 on a replacement stock that's STILL not right.
 
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Of course, there would have to be at least 4 versions of the stock for the kit, 4 or 5 versions of the lock, two barrel lengths, an artillery carbine, a Light infantry carbine and really off the charts officer's fusil in carbine caliber. Not to mention the several butt plates, side plates, ramrod thimbles and ramrod variations to meet the needs of the reenactment community.

Right off the top of my head and I am certainly missing some and some of the differences are slight.

1 Long land pattern of 1732/40 with wooden rammer
2 Long Land pattern of 1742
3 Light Infantry carbine of 1756
4 Short land pattern of 1761 (?)
5 Short Land Pattern of 1771
6 Artillery Carbine / NCO Carbine
7 Officer's Fusil
8 1766 Charleville with the ability to modify to the US issue Musket

I know that some of the differences are subtle and kit parts would have to be a real mix and match. Also, the market is really too small for an American manufacturer to be able to tool up to make a profit.

Right now, the suppliers of the Indian Manufactured muskets are filling that market demand with muskets that pass the acceptability test but not the top quality test.
 

Sidney Smith

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Calling items crap which you likely have never owned and likely never handled is pretty sad - no room for a healthy and beneficial discussion to the site. You stick to your favorites and I will enjoy my 200 year old crap
Wrong, I've handled a few of these guns. There was a guy at a local Muzzle loader gun show who was selling them. They all were heavy, clunky, unbalanced, and looked as if Ray Charles, and Stevie Wonder were on the payroll.

I will stick to my favorites, and I'll call a spade a spade when I see one. Rather than mislead another into thinking they're buying a decent gun when it's a turd.
 

Gunny5821

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I also like quality made items, but we (USA) are not the only ones that make quality items. India?, that could be a problem. But a country that can make fighter jets & nukes is certainly capable of making a decent flintlock. Makes you wonder some times ,why they don't?
N. Korea's building nukes and has been building their own Mig-29's for pretty close to 25 years. I'm looking for one of those Kim Young-un May-Pop Flinters. Sometimes it goes off and sometimes it don't. If anybody finds one, send it my way.
 

SirFrancis

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The problem with “India made” is that it’s such a catchall.

I’ve seen laughably clunky India made guns that look massively overbuilt, way too shiny, not proportional at all… stuff I wouldn’t pay $75 for (though judging by the rust around the drilled touch hole, somebody shot it and enjoyed it even if they never cleaned it.) I’ve also seen India made guns that were decent and certainly good value -provided the owner or purchaser was buying them with eyes open for what they were and not what they aren’t.

A friend sold a fusil de chasse (India made) on Gunbroker and it sold for about $500, not much less than what they go for new. So they hold their value (for what they are.) I insisted he put “made in India” in the title so as not to potentially deceive anyone. That was a nice gun, it felt light, lively, and responsive, if a little too shiny. They’re an increasingly compelling option because they’re quite a good value compared to the European guns. There is a pretty big market for reproductions of the iconic historical models (Bess, Charleville, etc) and not too many options, so it’s inevitable that these get discussed since they’re the cheap option, and not so uniformly bad that they can be all simply written off as junk. I think if someone goes into it knowing they’re buying a pre-assembled kit that may need refinishing, tuning, more wood removal on the stock, etc, they do represent a good value for many people.
 

Surfinator58

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The problem with “India made” is that it’s such a catchall.

I’ve seen laughably clunky India made guns that look massively overbuilt, way too shiny, not proportional at all… stuff I wouldn’t pay $75 for (though judging by the rust around the drilled touch hole, somebody shot it and enjoyed it even if they never cleaned it.) I’ve also seen India made guns that were decent and certainly good value -provided the owner or purchaser was buying them with eyes open for what they were and not what they aren’t.

A friend sold a fusil de chasse (India made) on Gunbroker and it sold for about $500, not much less than what they go for new. So they hold their value (for what they are.) I insisted he put “made in India” in the title so as not to potentially deceive anyone. That was a nice gun, it felt light, lively, and responsive, if a little too shiny. They’re an increasingly compelling option because they’re quite a good value compared to the European guns. There is a pretty big market for reproductions of the iconic historical models (Bess, Charleville, etc) and not too many options, so it’s inevitable that these get discussed since they’re the cheap option, and not so uniformly bad that they can be all simply written off as junk. I think if someone goes into it knowing they’re buying a pre-assembled kit that may need refinishing, tuning, more wood removal on the stock, etc, they do represent a good value for many people.
I agree ! I recently read a pole that found 50% of all muzzle loading community supported well made India guns yes they need tuning yes they need refinishing yes they need work but so does a $1,200 kit from some of the pricier American custom shops that sell these kits 4A re-enactor on a budget this is a great option and the money is not going to a communist Chinese company like 90% of all Goods shipped into America are
 
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I agree ! I recently read a pole that found 50% of all muzzle loading community supported well made India guns yes they need tuning yes they need refinishing yes they need work but so does a $1,200 kit from some of the pricier American custom shops that sell these kits 4A re-enactor on a budget this is a great option and the money is not going to a communist Chinese company like 90% of all Goods shipped into America are
Some of us have been extremely fortunate in life where others not so much, and that does not mean they did anything wrong. When you play poker, there i ony one winner in the round! anyway, there is a need to have options that are not so expensive. I listen to many on here posting about the high prices of gas, food, clothing etc,, then think nothing of dropping $1500-$2000 on a rifle kit that , lets face it, is really not needed. You do not need it to survive, feed the family etc, you just want it. That's Ok, but try and remember, you are indeed fortunate(IMHO) if you can afford to drop that amount of "change" on another toy for the collection. There needs to be alternative for those who cant afford that level entrance fee! (IMHO). I have several hand made rifles, made by well respected & known builders, but one of my favorites, and I have shown pics of it, is a ol orig Lyman GPR back when they were relatively new on the scene, that I built. I wasn't going to spend $$$ on a Jim Chambers or other kit, when I had zero experience, but I enjoyed building and redoing the Lyman GPR, from browning the metal, to refinishing the stock , even put in a small inlay! That was a feat for me, and the rifle shoots very well and I could not be happier. I consider it every bit as nice as my others.
 

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Surfinator58

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Some of us have been extremely fortunate in life where others not so much, and that does not mean they did anything wrong. When you play poker, there i ony one winner in the round! anyway, there is a need to have options that are not so expensive. I listen to many on here posting about the high prices of gas, food, clothing etc,, then think nothing of dropping $1500-$2000 on a rifle kit that , lets face it, is really not needed. You do not need it to survive, feed the family etc, you just want it. That's Ok, but try and remember, you are indeed fortunate(IMHO) if you can afford to drop that amount of "change" on another toy for the collection. There needs to be alternative for those who cant afford that level entrance fee! (IMHO). I have several hand made rifles, made by well respected & known builders, but one of my favorites, and I have shown pics of it, is a ol orig Lyman GPR back when they were relatively new on the scene, that I built. I wasn't going to spend $$$ on a Jim Chambers or other kit, when I had zero experience, but I enjoyed building and redoing the Lyman GPR, from browning the metal, to refinishing the stock , even put in a small inlay! That was a feat for me, and the rifle shoots very well and I could not be happier. I consider it every bit as nice as my others.
Got to love those old Great Plains rifles my dad had one years ago
 
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Some years ago I was changing my impression from a French milicien to a member of the Compagnies franches de la Marine, so I needed a proper French military gun. The only place I could find one was from one of the "India-made" vendors at a large event. I went to Ticonderoga, money in hand, to buy one. When I got there, they had only one left and I just didn't like it. The next year they had 6 or 7 to choose from. That is the way to buy one. Some were not so good, but one was great. A little work and it would have done nicely. But, by then, I had assembled a Rifle Shoppe gun and was very pleased with the results. If I had seen the India gun earlier, I would probably been OK with it. That is the way to buy one. Select from a group that are for sale.

Also, a friend from Canada, posted instructions on how to modify every aspect of the 1728 military fusil. He had before and after pictures and he did an outstanding job. He is not one to accept second best, so the India guns can be made into something nice. Just takes a little work.
 
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