Impossible Pistol Shot

[Crossfire]

Found the following quote on IMDB.com about the movie - The Patriot.

"Factual errors: Benjamin Martin shoots a British soldier who is on a moving horse using a flintlock pistol at a range of approximately 100 yards. A ball from a black powder pistol would not even reach that sort of distance and hitting a moving target at that distance would be difficult even with a modern pistol. The effective range of a blackpowder pistol is about 20 feet as the barrel is too short to allow all the powder to burn before the ball leaves the barrel (too low a muzzle velocity to achieve any sort of range"

While the shot in the movie is pretty unlikely, and judging from the pistol shooting at the last rhondy I wend to; black powder pistol shooting is somewhat more difficult than modern shooting. My question is, the quote that effective range for a BP pistol is 20 feet seems a bit low too me. What do you think the effective range for a bp pistol is?

 

[Old Charlie]

My GPP will shoot some pretty good groups at 50 yards.


Old Charlie

 

[54mountain]

I've got a .50 cal flint smoothbore with a ten inch barrel that will print a 8" group at 50 yards with 30g fffg all day long. Although that shot would be highly unlikely, I wouldn't want to get hit with a ball from it at a hundred yards.

As the mythbusters would say it's plausable.

 

[Protrucker]

What little I've shot my Traditions flintlock Trapper, I wouldn't be afraid to take a 30 yard shot at a deer. I wouldn't try much farther than that unless shooting off a rest. Then, I'd only go a little further(max 50yards) because I don't think it would have enough energy beyond that.

 

[Jumpshot]

Benjamin Martin shoots a British soldier who is on a moving horse using a flintlock pistol at a range of approximately 100 yards.

What scene was that in? I don't remember Martin doing that. I do remember Tavington doing it, though.

 

[biliff]

The individual that wrote that obviously hadn't heard of the practice of dueling. Fair number of killed and wounded with flintlock pistols. Figure each protagonist had to take 10 paces, then they were shooting at 20 paces. Depending on the individual's stride that would put them 50 to 60 feet apart.

The statement that a BP pistol does not have enough velocity to even reach 100 yards is equally ridiculous.

Seems the fact checker that wrote that needs to check his facts.

 

[crockett]

There are a fair number of references to mountain men riding up to buffalo and shooting them with pistols- Stewart, Hamilton, Parkman.

I get pretty good groups offhand at 50 yards with a cap lock pistol.

My S&W Model 29 in 44 Magnum has produced 6" groups at 100 yards off a rest- open sights.

Handgun expert Elmer Keith once said a handgun could be used at six hundred yards. He set up a target at that distance and hit it about 50% of the time. In other words the "bullet has to go somewhere". I think this long range pistol shooting doesn't mean that every shoot is going to hit the target.

 

[Dane]

OK,

My two cents..... #1 a black powder pistol WILL generate enough velocity to take someone down at 100yards. :surrender:

However, a smoothbore, with an 8" barrel, no rear sight, a man riding away on horseback, no rest,and a single hand hold..... what are the odds really??? :bow: :rotf:

 

[Protrucker]

OK,

My two cents..... #1 a black powder pistol WILL generate enough velocity to take someone down at 100yards.

Alright...... :hmm: for anybody that can figure balistics, what would the muzzle, 50yd & 100yd velocity & energy for a .50 cal round ball from a 9.75" barrel using a max charge of 45gr of FFFg Goex be?

I'm not disputing what you said. :v I wouldn't want to find out by standing 100yds away & have someone shooting at me.

I'm just curious about how far would really be an effective range for the flintlock pistol?

 

[bwhoffman]

I can go out to 50 yds at about 4 to 5 inches pretty regular with a flyer or 2 thrown in.
doesnt seem to be much delay in the ball getting to the target.
I know I wouldnt want to be on the receiving end!

 

[bob308]

first i think we should not correct these miatakes in the press. that way they will not know how dangerous we realy are with out black powder guns.

that said my layman plains pistol in .50 would really put a hurt on some one at a 100 yd. and of course he never heard of a walker colt.

now the problem of the smoothbore with no sight hitting something far away could be a problem.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Whoever wrote that must be mistaken. I used to shoot 2" and 4" .357cal S&W revolvers for hours at metal gongs approx 12-14" dia, and hit them consistently and done from the off hand postion. The same holds true with my .45 cal Government pistols. My Thompson Center patriot .45 cal will do the same thing. And these are all at ranges out to approx 120 yards. I would also shoot a Remington 12 ga with a 20" barrel with rifled slugs at those same gongs, all the way out to 220 plus yards. The shotgun was supported, shooting either from a bench or prone. I would do it with and without rifle sights.
What it boils down to is really knowing the capabilities of your firearm. Your abilities may give you some grief.
It can be done. :thumbsup:

 

[FishDFly]

At Adobe Walls one of the longest shots on a person was at 1538 yards, "Mike Venturino and some friends tried the long range (1538 yards) Dixon shot. They found it was quite possible; it just amounts to getting the elevation right with the old Sharps". Wonder what the person sitting on his horse thought when he fell and never heard the rifle?

One of the most scarey quotes in Texas is "watch this, hold my beer". It has killed and injuried more people than any other.

Knowing some of the pistol shooters that I do, I would not stand 100 yards down range of them, just to see if they could do it.

Nah, not even on a windy day.

RDE

 

[crockett]

There are also accounts during the Revolutionary War of Americans shooting British officers at extremely long ranges. By our modern ballistic standards these historical facts were theoretically impossible.

 

[Zonie]

I doubt that a .50 cal pistol would have been used in the Rev War. Whether this is true or not I proceeded to look in the Dixie Catalog.
They say the standard charge for a .67 cal Tower pistol was 35 grains of powder.

The Lyman Blackpowder Handbook doesn't have a .67 cal pistol listed but they do have a .54

A 35 grain powder load under a .530 patched roundball in a 8 inch barreled .54 cal pistol gave a muzzle velocity of 792 FPS.
At 25 yards the velocity was 757 FPS. Still mighty lethal.

Plugging the muzzle velocity and ball size into my roundball trajectory calculator it says the velocity at 50 yards would be 694 FPS with a energy of 240 Ft/Lbs.
The velocity at 100 yards would be 603 FPS with a energy of 181 Ft/Lbs.

Now, given that a High Speed.22 LR with a 40 grain bullet has a muzzle energy of about 150 Ft/Lbs and a .22 Magnum rimfire has a 100 yard energy of 170 Ft/Lbs and it is recognized that either one of these would be lethal to a man, that 181 Ft/Lbs of the .54 coupled with the size of the ball would, IMO be quite lethal to anyone hit in the head or upper body.

 

[torn moc]

Zonie, those ballistics equal those of my 1911
Colt .45 auto...and with that pistol I can hit a man sized target in the chest 85% of the time
off hand at 100 yards....I am trying to raise that percentage. I also know that the bullet will completly submerge in a telephone pole at that range.
please dont ask How I know.....

 

[paulvallandigham]

Whoever wrote that nonsense doesn't shoot pistols or revolvers, and apparently has never heard of Pistol Silhouette competitions, or NRA Hunter Action shooting. The IHMSA has a course of fire at metallic silhouette plates, shaped like animals, that begins at 50 meters for chickens, then 100 meter for pigs, then 160 meters for Turkeys, and finally Rams at 200 meters. Thousands of handgun shooters shoot these pistol courses here in America every month of the year. The NRA action pistol course uses reduced sized silhouettes, for ranges out to 100 yds, and the targets are spaced at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yds. There are both .22 and centerfire caliber revolver/pistol matches. I have shot the .22 course out to 100 yds on several occasions, and the centerfire IHMSA course once.

I have no doubt that with the right pistol, and some practice, I can hit a man-sized target at 100 yds., even shooting BP in a smoothbore. Use a .62 caliber flintlock " Tower " pistol, and that man is coming off that horse, for sure.

I have been reading and hearing this kind of nonsense all my life, and the very first time I had an opportunity to cut loose at a 50 yard target with my .22 revolver, I did. Then, I got to roll tin cans at 100 yds with it. I have not looked back. The last time I had an opportunity to prove the capability of a modern handgun to a " doubting Thomas" he was a former police officer, and member of his department's pistol team who didn't think you could shoot a handgun ( and hit anything) beyond 50 yards!

I found a snag in the river at about 75 yards, and put three rounds with a .45 Colt, S&W DA revolver into the snag. I then handed him the gun and he put the next 3 rounds into the snag along with mine.


He was delighted, not only with the big N-frame revolver, but with the opportunity to shoot at a longer range with a handgun. His whole way of thinking about the value of a handgun for protection changed, as he realized that with only a little practice, and training in using different positions to steady his gun, that he could be lethal way past where most officers were trained to shoot with any handgun.

 

[mykeal]

Interesting set of responses. Well done, gentlemen. A minimum of ranting and a high degree of simply stating the facts. I'm pleased to be able to say I'm part of this fraternity.

The first thing I did in this thread was go to the link provided; the comment was made on a forum called Internet Movie Data Base. Should pretty well tell us what we need to know about the source.

 

[shooyer_250]

Scalper, i was attacked by a telephone pole once, i understand..Lee

 

[wwfeatherston]

I have no problem hitting the 1/2 sized buffalo silhouette at 200 meters with my Walker Colt.