Id these two please

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tom in nc

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I bought two rifles at a local flea market and would like to know more about them. One is, I believe, an old gun, probably made from parts of more than one old gun. It appears to be .36 caliber. All I have is the barrel and stock, although the stock still has the brass trigger guard and butt plate. There are NO markings on the barrel. The barrel was obviously intended for a full stock instead of the half stock that it's in because there is evidence of more lugs ahead of the stock, or I guess they were for the ramrod?
IMG_20220918_101919212_HDR.jpg
IMG_20220918_101857886_HDR.jpg

The other one is a full stock .45 caliber reproduction, but the only markings are "SPAIN" on the barrel and inside the lock. I suspect it is an old Jukar?
IMG_20220918_103633345_HDR.jpg
IMG_20220918_104840361_HDR.jpg

The rifling in the .45 is very shallow and appears to have been made that way. I have seen similar rifling before but don't remember where. I'm not sure but it appears that the .45 might be unfired. The old timer that I bought them from said they were both wall hangers. May be. Thanks.
 
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The bottom rifle looks to be an early CVA They had a shallow 1/48 barrel . Most had a constriction part way down the barrel. I assume it was from a clamping in the manufacturing process. It did not affect accuracy but make cleaning a real pain since the cleaning patches would hang up.They sot min's well and round balls well as long as the powder charges were not over 50 grain. I assembled many of them from kits for the local Amish boys.The later ones had a different "spacer" where the two pieces joined and had jukar barrels which were far superior.
 

tom in nc

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I guess since I'm working on a cheap gun that some of you consider a junker, even when it was new, it's not a real disaster, but I broke the nipple off trying to remove it.
IMG_20220919_095503702_HDR.jpg

The nipple was plugged so I tried a small drill bit first. The bit actually felt like it was bottoming out against steel so I quit with the bit. I thought, since I could not blow thru the barrel with compressed air, that maybe there was a load, or a dryball in it. Using the ramrod as a guage, I don't think so. I haven't removed the barrel yet to see if/ how the breech plug is removed. The tang is part of the barrel so I wonder about the breech plug. I suppose I can drill out the broken nipple but what size are the threads on a nipple? Looking at TOW's website it appears that Jukar (and others) were commonly 6mm but it is common practice to drill and tap for a 7mm replacement. will post more pics as I progress.
 
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tom in nc

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I removed the barrel from the stock. There are numbers penciled in the channel for the barrel.
IMG_20220919_102031654_HDR.jpg

No markings on the lower side of the barrel though.
IMG_20220919_101859340_HDR.jpg

IMG_20220919_101929791_HDR.jpg


It appears that the joint between the barrel and breech (plug) is in line with the P in SPAIN, stamped into the barrel. I don't know if I should try to separate the two or not.
Maybe I should try to remove the remainder of the broken nipple to unstop the barrel first. What say ye?
 
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If you can get the nipple out, you'll be in better shape than trying to re-thread a bored-out hole. Suggest soaking (really soaking) it with Kroil and using a reverse thread "easy out" to unscrew the nipple. Until you're certain there's no load in the barrel, heating with a torch ..uh...nope.
 
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The bottom one is a CVA, not the best quality. Might be able to be made into a shooter but would require closer examination to determine if it can be saved. The older one might be able to be restore but, again, needs closer examination.
 

tom in nc

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After I broke the nipple off, and removed the barrel I drilled the center of the broken nipple some more. I was not getting thru it when I was drilling it before I broke it. The broken piece is still in place but the barrel is now clear. Once I get a replacement nipple in place I'll load and shoot it.
 
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Harbor freight sells a cheap set of left hand drill bits. I’ve had good luck with them in some cases with stubborn bolts etc. Often the stubborn screw will come right out as you are drilling and don’t need to use an easy out.
 

Stykbow

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Harbor freight sells a cheap set of left hand drill bits. I’ve had good luck with them in some cases with stubborn bolts etc. Often the stubborn screw will come right out as you are drilling and don’t need to use an easy out.
I didn’t even know there is such a thing! I’ve never had much luck with easy outs, so I think I’ll track down some of these left handed bits and give that a try next time.
 
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Before you get too aggressive with your removal procedure, soak that breech in a penetrating solution such as Kroil or the 50/50 mix of acetone and transmission fluid. The penetrating oils start the loosening process so when you tap on the easy out or run the left handed drill bits. Vibration of the stuck item is your friend when loosening frozen in place threaded fasteners.
 

tom in nc

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My favorite local hardware store didn't have any LH bits smaller than 1/4" but I bought an EZ-out. It is small enough to go in the hole I have drilled thru the broken nipple, but will not grip it.
 
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Grind a little off the end of the easy out as they are tapered , and maybe it will grip then. Soak with Kroil over night. In 1970 , My first "long rifle" style gun , was a 2nd hand , Spanish made FIE , almost identical to the one you show. With only a few shots at a target , the gun convinced me , this sport was going to be fun..........oldwood
 

tgfrench

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Before you shoot the gun much you may need to address the bedding in the area of the breech plug and stock. By the photos you can see where the back of the breech is not fitting tightly to the stock. The movement of the barrel having stricken the lock screw enough to crack the stock in that area.
 
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