I wonder why do the price of M1861 vary so much...

[dew9lei]

Been shopping around for a original civil war era M1891 and wondering why do the price vary so much? I do understand that the finer the condition is the higher the price tag it will carry but I saw some are in very similar condition (from the sellers description) but there's a $1k price gap between them. Is it because one contractor (or manufacturer) is more valuable than the other? Is it because one has personal tags on the stock? The year?

How much am I looking at around for a M1861 in shootable condition, with a good bore and good cosmetic (clear markings, eagles, numbers, etc.,)? (year and maker doesnt really matter).

I wish to learn a bit more before dumping close to $2k on something that might worth $1k max.

Thank you for any inputs!

 

[dave951]

There are lots of things that go into pricing one. Generally, a "parts" gun made from original parts of shooter grade will be at the low end of the price range. Get a complete original in excellent condition and the price goes up. Get one with provable provenace ie- documented history connected to a person and a battle, and the price goes up more. If that person is a Confederate, it goes up even more. That said, a shooter grade in good condition with original parts is still going to be in the $1500 range.

My advice to you is- get acquainted with an expert on these arms. There are several in the North South Skirmish Association. We shoot these arms in competition. Get in touch with Dave Stavelow at Lodgewood.

 

[dew9lei]

There are lots of things that go into pricing one. Generally, a "parts" gun made from original parts of shooter grade will be at the low end of the price range. Get a complete original in excellent condition and the price goes up. Get one with provable provenace ie- documented history connected to a person and a battle, and the price goes up more. If that person is a Confederate, it goes up even more. That said, a shooter grade in good condition with original parts is still going to be in the $1500 range.

My advice to you is- get acquainted with an expert on these arms. There are several in the North South Skirmish Association. We shoot these arms in competition. Get in touch with Dave Stavelow at Lodgewood.

Would 1800 shipping included be too much for a William muir 1864 in shootable and fair to good condition?

 

[dave951]

Would 1800 shipping included be too much for a William muir 1864 in shootable and fair to good condition?

I wouldn't buy anything I can't see without having a right of refusal. The problem with Civil War era stuff is the amount of forgeries that have been going on for years. There is also the issue of one man's idea of excellent is probably my idea of fair.

This isn't like buying a new item off Amazon. They're antiques and condition can vary widely. You could have the arm shipped to Dave Stavelow at Lodgewood for appraisal.

 

[maillemaker]

It's a real problem in general buying something sight-unseen off the internet if you want it to be a shooter.

When I got into black powder a decade ago I bought my first Enfield - a Euroarms P53 off of Gunbroker. Darn thing ended up having a .584 bore!!!! (should be nominally .577!). And even when I finally found a bullet to fit it, it never did shoot worth a darn and I ended up getting a Whitacre barrel for it.

If you want an original shooter that shoots well I would ask for a target shot from a bench at 50 yards and with what load it was done. It will be hard to get anyone to comply with that. Buying from an N-SSA person is good because they will generally know how the gun shoots and with what load.

 

[towgunner11h]

I think any decent original 1861 nowadays will be priced above $1,500, likely closer to 2 grand.

 

[dew9lei]

Thank you all for the help and inputs. I went ahead and jumped on the L.G.Y 1861 from Lodgewood for 1145 shipped. I am not looking for precision accuracy so by " shooter " I really meant something that can hit a human size target at 100 yard. With the description and the reputation of Lodgewood, that particular rifle looks pretty promising.

 

[dew9lei]

Since I have your attention here. I can't find any #11 caps available but the musket caps are available at Grafts. Can you please show me which cap nipple I should buy to covert the M1861 from #11 to musket caps? Thx again!!

 

[dave951]

Since I have your attention here. I can't find any #11 caps available but the musket caps are available at Grafts. Can you please show me which cap nipple I should buy to covert the M1861 from #11 to musket caps? Thx again!!

Unless somebody converted it to use #11, it should already be set up for musket caps.

 

[dew9lei]

Unless somebody converted it to use #11, it should already be set up for musket caps.

So these would fit? Thank you again!

 

[maillemaker]

Yes, a musket like the 1861 should already be set up to use musket caps.

 

[dave951]

So these would fit? Thank you again!

Yes and they're good quality. HOWEVER, the metal in them is a bit harder than RWS and will sometimes "misfire" when it's nothing more than the harder metal is requiring you to be more diligent in seating the cap. Easy fix is to lightly file/polish the profile on the sides of the nipple and presto, no problems. I use these very caps for competition.

 

[Widows Son]

If that person is a Confederate, it goes up even more.

Why, praytell, does Confederate provenance increase value?

 

[towgunner11h]

Why, praytell, does Confederate provenance increase value?

Because they are worth more.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There is demand for Confederate provenance that drives price.

 

[dave951]

Why, praytell, does Confederate provenance increase value?

Proven Confederate provenance to a particular person and battle history is rare. Rare costs money.

Since you're "down under", there was what we call the "Late Unpleasantness" aka the "Civil War". Much of it was fought in the southern states and many states experienced devastation and huge loss of life. Artifacts from documented from the period have a value and to be able to peg it to a particular person and battle history is not only rare but will send the values skyrocketing. As such, there is an industry in the US for "faking" things and passing them off as real. Add that into the reenacting groups and their desire for "authentic" gear, and it's getting hard to spot some fakes.

 

[Widows Son]

Thank you for your reply.

I’m quite familiar with the US Civil War, and I think to this day it still must be the bloodiest conflict yet fought in the western hemisphere. I was unaware however of the desirability of confederate relics or the ”faked’ market.

Are genuine Confederate relics more valuable than genuine Union relics?

 

[dave951]

Thank you for your reply.

I’m quite familiar with the US Civil War, and I think to this day it still must be the bloodiest conflict yet fought in the western hemisphere. I was unaware however of the desirability of confederate relics or the ”faked’ market.

Are genuine Confederate relics more valuable than genuine Union relics?

Generally speaking, yes. I think partly because they are far more rare than ones with Federal provenance and that I think because of the Union having far more material resources.

As for the fake market, there is a term used by reenactors- "defarbed" meaning any and all non historic markings and finishes removed and replaced with historically "correct" ones. In short creating a forgery but without the intent to deceive anyone but that is often the ultimate result. While I can see the desire to own something completely "correct", creating one from a modern item is almost as bad as doing it with intent. Often these "defarbed" items will pass on from their creators, not by intent, but when they pass and their heirs, not be aware the items are fakes, will sell them as if they were. If said items were something of an item in Confederate use, then the price goes even higher. Again, the origin of said item could be completely innocent but end up on the forgery market. So I take a very dim view of "defarbing" even when it leaves some "trace" to ascertain it's a fake because that "trace" can be erased by someone unscrupulous in later years.