I found an original...please help with info

[MacRob46]

I cannot tell anything much from the photos you sent. Clearer pictures and more views would help a lot. For example, what does the cheek piece look like, if any? Is there molding carved on the forend? Barrel pins or keys? Any relief carving any where?

One thing that stands out to me is the size of the lock panel versus the size of the lock. They are out of proportion. Not all old guns had small lock panels but the lock on this one looks tiny in comparison.

 

[Amikee]

Frank Slyker from KRA sends following information:

American Gunsmiths by Frank Sellers, on page 39, lists without reference, "Charles Bird & Co, Philadelphia", as the maker of "locks only", 1790 - 1814.

 

[Amikee]

Here is more pictures:

 

[Amikee]

 

[MacRob46]

Thanks...those additional photos help a lot. I think you have a late flint era long rifle. The lock was probably converted prior to fitting it to the gun, which was done frequently as the percussion system overtook flintlocks in popularity. Even if that is the case, I think the hammer is a later replacement. It just looks out of place on the lock. The absence of relief carving and the few inlays tells me it is from the 1820 to 1830 period, perhaps a bit later. The lock panel and side plate panel are the same size and I therefore think the lock is original to the gun. The kind of wood is still unclear but straight grain maple is my guess. The break at the wrist is common in these guns but it tells me that the gunstocker did not properly select a blank to take advantage of the natural grain pattern to lessen the chance of a broken wrist later on. Removing the lock and/or side plate, if you can do so without damaging the wood, may provide a clearer picture of what the wood is. The patchbox and toe plate engraving are typical of the later period in that they are rather deep and unspectacular and the narrow deep crescent butt plate is also indicative of a later gun. The photo of the toe plate seems to show that the patchbox is "proud", i.e. the wood has shrunk somewhat and the brass is no longer flush with the stock. That would indicate, if what I am seeing in the photo is the edge of the brass, that the stock is fairly old and probably original to the gun. The architecture is nice but it is difficult to assign it to any particular school of gunmaking. Overall it is an interesting piece but IMHO, unless it can be attributed to a well-known gunsmith of the era, it is not an extremely valuable piece. Watch somebody come up with information that proves me wrong on that score which would make me very happy for the owner. Do you know anything about the provenance of the gun?

 

[Amikee]

I have no other information. Someone just brought it to the shop and left it in a trade or something I'm guessing. But I doubt he/she had any info on it either. My guess is just like yours that this rifle was made past Rev War and past 1801. Good thing is we know the years the maker was making the locks. Those rifles are full of history I'm sure. Wish they could talk. Thank you

 

[54ball]

Better pictures answer some questions but they pose new ones.


Note the style of engraving on the patchbox. Note that the lid of the box does not seem to match. Note too, the the wood inside the panels is cracked and weathered but the overall rifle is blackened.





Here is something I'm not comfortable with at all. The side plate is not engraved by the same hand that engraved the patch box. Another big thing is the way the lock bolt is inlet is very unprofessional and it only has one lock bolt.
The C-Bird lock was made for two bolts and in the lock side picture it's hard to tell if had two bolts or if the front was just an empty hole, This view confirms it has only one lock nail.



Here is another problem I have with this rifle. Look at all the black, so much that it reflects a blueish hue. Note that the black is on the barrel but not on the brass. Note the thimble where it appears some of the black has been wiped away, look at how thick it is on the stock.
Sometimes varishes and finishes turn dark or cause the wood to turn dark but to me this does not look like that. It looks more like paint, almost in an effort to cover something.

IMHO in light of new photos, This is most likely a re stock reusing old parts. That work was done long ago, the restock that is. It also appears to me that it has been fooled with in recent years, maybe a unskilled restoration attempt.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Good eye Travis, on all counts. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Amikee]

Yes sir. This was noticed and reported to Mr Gabel of KRA. He will be examining this piece over the next couple of days so we may have a better understanding of what this rifle represents. Too many unknows like you're noticing. Appreciate the help. I'll keep you gentleman posted as soon as I hear from Mr G.
amikee

 

[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

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[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

I tried to capture the wood in sunlight but as you can see the sun didn't help too much. This finish is so dark.

 

[Amikee]

Hello

Here's Mr Gabel's information I received today.

(...)As you pointed out the wrist of the gun has been
broken, this in itself is not that unusual and only hurts the value of the
rifle a little. What hurts the value more is that the barrel tang seems to
have been lengthened to help reinforce the wrist. The very thin trigger
guard suggests possible manufacture in the area of the state around Bedford,
Somerset or Huntingdon County. The gun was finished dark as were many in
the Huntingdon County area. The one photo you did not send was the side
plate. It appears, however, that the side plate had only one lock screw
while the lock has provision for two screws. The two screwed lock
definitely had been made to be flint, but the side plate would require a
forward screw for the rifle to have ever been flint. This suggests either
the side plate of lock were replaced or the percussion gun was made using a
flint lock. The patch box style would fit the York County area or the
Somerset or Huntingdon County area, but the rifle is late and the design
could have been used most anywhere. (...)

 

[jdkerstetter]

Now it makes more sence. I haven't studied the guns from this area as they don't appeal to me, but I can see some simularities.

The drop of the stock. The low comb. The generous lock panels looked out of place as this lock is shorter than the atypical lock from the area....superimpose a rat-tail Bedford lock on the same panel and it's not so long. Bedford and lower Huntington County guns share some simulaties from the geographic proximity.

The generous proportions of the forend compaired to other longrifles bothered me too, but some guns from this area had rounder, fatter forends.

Google this and hit the image button at the top of the google page...pay particular attention to the lock panels: JACOB SNYDER 120110-5

Then this one, only follow the first google link withoug hitting images. Look at the forend and the color on this one: Snyder, Tobias 130303-4

Though the gun you have obviously doesn't have atypical Bedford/Huntington County inlays and carving, it does share simular architectual features. Perhaps period or later restock or an aprentice gun, or one build for a client of meager means.

Things that make you go.... :hmm: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Amikee]

Looks like we have finished our research. I don't think there is much more we can add to the information Mr Gabel sent me.
I'd like to thank all of you for a great help, pointers and references. I learned few useful things from you.
Untill the next mystery rifle!
amikee

 

[suzkat]

I think there is a lot more to add to this discussion. I agree with Ron's suggested area of origin. I see no evidence the tang was lengthened. Many guns especially from that area had two screw tangs. What surprises me is that you stated the gun is signed L.F. Wood on the barrel and nobody has followed up on that. I would contact Dr. James Whisker and ask him if he may have learned of Wood since the publishing of his book on Bedford rifles. The rifle reminds me of the work of Nicholas Shenefelt. This is a very interesting rifle. I just wonder why the lock panels are so huge relative to the lock. I think somebody put shellac over the whole gun probably back in the 70s or so. Anyway, nice find and good luck finding out more about L.F. Wood. Can we see a pic of the signature?

 

[Tatonka]

I wouldn't close the case quite yet. You could get ten different opinions from ten different kra people. Probably likewise on the internet. Ignoring the patchbox, it looks to me like a southern mountain-style rifle. Notice the overall architecture, the hardware, except the patchbox, the heavy barrel/small bore, the broad and flat lockplate/sideplate area, consistent toe plate, butt plate, trigger guard, and dark finished, almost bland wood. Again, the patchbox is not consistent. But, all sorts of things were used, and reused - especially in the south. Who knows.