I found an original...please help with info

[Amikee]

Hello

To my friend's shop someone brought an original looking rifle.
It looks like a Pennsylvania style in about .45 cal with deeeeep groves, and working C. Bird Company Philadelphia lock which is working. It's a conversion to percussion. Has a nice engraved patchbox with hidden release and overal is in nice condition. The ramrod is broken and the stock is broken at wrist but it's not showing very much. On the barrel are marks L F. Wood has no major dings or scratches. No chipping. Bore is in need of cleaning and the rifle was not test fired. Looks like a small job to do. Brass is pretty. Only lock shows rusty face but looks like a matter of polishing as no major pitting was found. Great project rifle with working operational lock. Anyone has any ideas who the builder may be? We're also looking to price it out, so if someone knows how much could it be worth we'd strongly appreciate this. Thank You

 

[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

 

[Amikee]

 

[jdkerstetter]

WARNING! DO NOT CLEAN UP OLD GUNS UNTIL YOU HAVE THEM EVALUATED BY A PROFESSIONAL!!!!

Furniture or any other antique for that matter, as you can do hundreds, and sometimes thousands of dollars of irreversible damage to their value.

And don't attempt to fire it until it has been evaluated either. Old forge welded iron barrels come apart all the time. Maiming folks and destroying pieces of history.

That being said, my gut feeling on looking at these pictures is that this is a mid 20th century restock on old parts. The architecture certainly isn't indicative of early work. Later percussion era work maybe. But anything is possible.

Have you ascertained what species of wood that is? Doesn't look right to me. It's hard to tell in pictures but it almost looks sort of like pine done in a walnut stain.

The rear of the lock panel shows grain runout that likely resulted in the broken wrist. The grain also appears to be running from the heel of the butt to the trigger guard instead of running lengthwise.

Again, anything is possible. Perhaps the more learned amoung us have more answers. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[54ball]

That's a neat rifle and indeed it looks like it might be a true conversion. At least the lock that is. Many of the rifles you see today some even flintlocks were made as percussion.

Since it has the crude hammer and remnants of the pan remain I would say it is possibly a true flint to percussion conversion.

It could also be more modern made with old parts.

Only lock shows rusty face but looks like a matter of polishing

I would hold off maybe just a light wipe down but I would not do a thing to it until I knew what it is.
You might want to try these guys for info...
Link Kentucky Longrifle Association

 

[Amikee]

Did I actually wrote that I will polish it? Lol. I was thinking aloud I guess. I'm not going to do any restoration as I don't have the necessary knowledge, tools, and skills to do this.
As to the wood-wood looks original JD. I mean looks original like hell brother. Finish on her looks original as well. But like you said, anything is possible but metal to wood is just too perfect to fake it. But I'm no specialist by any means.
The lock functions superbly. I like those sharp grooves inside the barrel as well. You guys are right- I'll ask CLA for info. Meanwhile, whoever knows something, feel free to post it.
Thank You

amikee

 

[jdkerstetter]

Did I actually wrote that I will polish it? Lol....

My warning wasn't just for you but the many potential web-crawlers who may come across this post while trolling the web.

....but metal to wood is just too perfect to fake it....

That's part of the problem. To be an original flintlock the gun would likely be close to 200 years old. A great majority of that time in old homes with no real climate control other than heat in the winter. Superb fit of metal parts over all that time would not be expected.

Anyway, I didn't say it was a "fake", just that it's probable that these parts were reused and assembled into the gun it is now. Either way, it's cool to just have it.

Contact the KRA as recommended by Travis above. They will be able to tell you what you have here.

Thanks for posting it and please keep us updated on what you find out. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Amikee]

Thank you JD. I didn't post my response to start an argument. You're far more knowledgeable than I am-that's for sure and I will not take any chances, lol. Yes, fit looks good. It's not damaged a whole lot but again, I've only seen a couple originals up close so can't really say for sure if this supposed to be like this. Rifle doesn't look refinished as far as te color of the wood is concern. Also, the patchbox inlet and amout of green in brass, and this "fog" around it looks like it's been always there. Definitely old wood, but how old? Who knows. Brass develops patina at decent rate, but inside looks very old plus this release button surely makes me debate about its authenticity. I will post the results as soon as I find some info. I do know that some flintlock pistols with this lock sold for around thirteen thousand dollars. And I hope this will be nicely priced as well. Of course we'll share with anyone who will help us determine the details. Thanks again
JD

 

[Amikee]

Hello

I got response from CLA. One gentleman estimated its value at around 2500.00 so good deal. He said the wood and maker are more than likely from New York. Rifle was made around Rev War. That's about it.
Thanks for help

 

[jdkerstetter]

Why did you contact the CLA and not the KRA, as recommended?

The CLA's main focus is on contemporary guns, while the KRA's focus is on antique original guns. Just curious.

Did the gentleman make that estimation based only on the same photographs you posted here? J.D.

 

[54ball]

I did a quick search on the lock. I found a pistol someone had for sale dated Circa 1800 keep in mind circa means there about . Gun maker data base I looked at showed the C Bird lock-maker/importer/contractor active in Phillie 1810s-20s.
This rifle has a lot of attributes for a rifle of that era 1815-25.

it almost looks sort of like pine done in a walnut stain.

I think what throws JD off here is how the wood looks in the last picture of the lock. The nose of the lock panel in front of the lock appears to be damaged or scuffed. The way the light reflects off this"damaged" area makes the wood look strange.

My gut feeling on it that's worth the price of admission, I think it is a middling grade almost generic flint longrifle made in the 1820s. I do not know enough to identify the exact region for certain but I can spot attributes of the era.

In that era there were lots of firms/contractors/makers in the Eastern cities especially around Philadelphia that were active for just a few years. Many are lost to history, especially the smaller operations.

Value, I'm not qualified to comment but I will say this. If that rifle was a new build "contemporary" I would say $2500 like the CLA guy said. Ironically originals can sometimes go for much less.

Whatever you do, do not consider a reconversion back to flint. The percussion conversion with the primitive hammer is really the main attribute this rifle has.

 

[Amikee]

I've sent him more pictures with close ups. I haven't heard from KRA as of yet. Jus wanted to keep you updated. Thank you

 

[Amikee]

Well, CLA is thinking it was made earlier than 1820s because the original lock was in flint version. As to the reflection, it just looks like this inthe picture. In reality it's darker and looks normal. I found few pistols with C. Bird locks selling for over 13,000 and that's impressive. I'm not looking to make a fortune on it but I can't keep it either. Thank you for all the info so far. amikee

 

That muzzle looks strangely familiar. A rifle by the name of "Yellow Jacket", if memory serves. It was featured in a DBI book back in the mid to late 70's.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Well, CLA is thinking it was made earlier than 1820s because the original lock was in flint version.....

Who at the CLA answered your queery? Did they give you anything else to go off of aside from the fact that the lock was a conversion?

Sorry, but I can't help being skeptical for the reasons I listed above, the overall architecture and some other things. I certainly wouldn't date it to 1820. Parts of it yes, but not the whole gun.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have value. The great American built guns fetch upwards of $100K, so even old parts are worth something, and sometimes quite a bit when they are needed by restorers.

Try posting some better pictures over on the ALR in the Antique Gun Collecting forum and see what you they say there. Very, very educated collectors and scholars frequent that corner of the web. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Amikee]

We'll wait for more information. I have no knowledge of the historic firearms. As so date built, we were guessing earlier make since it's a conversion, but it was also stated that wood look totally original. Thanks again

 

[Amikee]

Would you happen to have a link or adress of this site for ALR? There is a bunch of them coming up during the internet search. I'm very curious what this rifle is.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Old guns, like anything else, can't be takin' as a whole when evaluating them for originality. Each piece has to be examined as parts were often recycled.

Point is, a converted lock only means the lock was converted. Could be original to the gun it's in, or it could have been original to a gun 20 or 200 years previous. It, unto itself, does not tell the age of a gun.

There are documented original guns from the time of the Revolution that had locks that predated them by more than 30 years.

Wood is organic and can not be used to judge the age of a gun by itself either. I was at Fred Miller's Wednesday and was looking at some Chestnut from here that was from a very old covered bridge that was damaged in a storm. To judge age finish, tool marks, etc, all have to be examined.

I'm sure there are KRA members near enough to you that they would be willing to travel to examine the gun. Many of these guys are on a quest to uncover original guns....it's just what they do.

Like I said, I don't know, I am just skeptical. I anxiously await more information too, as I would love for another original gun to be documented. Strange things have happened, and do all the time.

Good luck and Enjoy, J.D.