I dont know what this is, any ideas?

Discussion in 'Firearm Identification' started by Schyler Rippie, Apr 15, 2019.

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum by donating:

Tags:
  1. Apr 15, 2019 #1

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    15553647533409159078113680650908.jpg 15553647533409159078113680650908.jpg 15553647533409159078113680650908.jpg 15553647887784789994087536431349.jpg 15553648083168690020508189416890.jpg 15553648515855456047860233377158.jpg 15553648647365226573186262515178.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Apr 16, 2019 #2

    Phil Coffins

    Phil Coffins

    Phil Coffins

    40 Cal.

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    87
    Location:
    Colorado
    I’d call it a southern mountain rifle with a British military lock. The lock could be an early replacement.
     
  3. Apr 16, 2019 #3

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    50 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    503
    It's a muzzleloader for sure...There's no way you'll load a cartridge in it, or nock an arrow upon it.
    It has to be a muzzleloader. :D
     
    Pete G, azmntman and Nyckname like this.
  4. Apr 16, 2019 #4

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    9,487
    Likes Received:
    751
    Location:
    Republic mo
    People were not as picky about making stuff right and could make guns from mismatched parts. There seems to have been many makers that made fantasy pieces in the old days. Many old guns were made before “ ‘Pennsylvania- Virginia- SMR-Tennessee- transitional- Ohio- early plains- late Plains- Carolina.....’” were invented. Many of these makers never knew what school of guns they made, and violated all the rules.
    Shush don’t tell any one you have an SMR with a musket lock:)
     
  5. Apr 16, 2019 #5

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Moderator Staff Member MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    28,026
    Likes Received:
    785
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    It could be something that was recently made either using a original or a replica Bess lock which would make it out of place in this area of the forum. (This area is for real antique guns that were made pre 1866.)

    That said, it also could have been made any at any time that a Bess lock was available so for the moment, I will let the topic continue.
     
  6. Apr 16, 2019 #6

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8,835
    Likes Received:
    484
    The lock is of the British P 1777 style.

    I am a little suspicious of the lock because the double line engraving around the end of the sear screw coming through the lock plate is rather crude. However, this could be because P1793 and later India Pattern Besses were allowed to be more crude due to the emergency of the Napoleonic Wars. A good view of the inside of the lock may help to better identify it. The sideplate is also of a military style and could be from a musket that the lock was also were cannibalized from.

    I realize it has a rear sight, but is the bore actually rifled or is it a smooth bore?

    If it is a smooth bore and large enough caliber, this gun would have inexpensively met the requirement of the 1792 Militia Acts. There were LOADS of guns made from cannibalized military parts to satisfy the requirements of that law for the militia. Matter of fact, many guns that have been described as "made up from parts for the AWI," were in fact made up to satisfy the later 1792 Militia Acts.

    Gus
     
  7. Apr 18, 2019 #7

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    I appriciate the feedback. You are one of the only people that made any sense to me. I dont much about old fire arms. The story on this piece is truly an interesting one. My Grandfather was lineman in texas for many years. In the 1970s he was running a telephone wire through an old house. He poked a hole in the wall and there it was, sitting between two studs. The older man he was working for offered it to him as payment for the job. My Grandad took it. That is all i know about it
     
    SamTex1949 likes this.
  8. Apr 18, 2019 #8

    Robert 2238

    Robert 2238

    Robert 2238

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting gun with an interesting story.
     
  9. Apr 18, 2019 #9

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you. Thats why I am so curious to learn more about it.
     
  10. Apr 18, 2019 #10

    Robert 2238

    Robert 2238

    Robert 2238

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hear you, if it were mine , I try to find out as much as I could.
     
  11. Apr 19, 2019 #11

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    7,768
    Likes Received:
    549
    Location:
    People's Republic of Maryland
    Well first the engraving on the lock behind the cock isn't that far off from a 3rd Model Bess, although the "TOWER" is a bit small..., BUT what bothers me is the engraving of the crown. There's no acceptance mark between the crown and the hole... so I'd say that's unlikely to be a British military arm...

    A proper lock has this

    THIRD model lock stamping arrow.jpg

    Your lock is missing this mark and I don't think it shows signs of removal but signs of never having been there...

    THIRD model lock stamping missing.jpg


    Add to that the lack of a full set of ramrod pipes, the stock nose doesn't allow for a bayonet and there is no nose cap, plus I don't see a thumb escutcheon on top of the stock's wrist, so..., I think what you have is an African trade gun, perhaps Dutch or Belgian. Those two nations made a lot of Bess muskets for England under contract, which were later approved by the Army and given several stamps. (If your barrel bears proofing marks I bet they are not British.) British slave traders on ships often traded guns at the slave markets, and the guns the slavers wanted were Bess muskets. However, the slavers didn't really know how to tell the difference between a true Bess and a second rate (less expensive) copy of a Bess...since the Dutch and Belgians were already making guns of that pattern, it was a simply thing to knock up some bogus engraving and "Bess-up" the copies.

    So likely circa 1860's and probably entered the US from leftover specimens off a Southern slave ship...when the Yankees began to blockade Southern ports, they'd empty the ship, and who knows what happened to her ???

    LD
     
  12. Apr 20, 2019 #12

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    58 Cal.

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,745
    Likes Received:
    132
    Location:
    Winchester, VA
    Additionally the side plate and trigger guard are wrong and there are no sling swivels or provision for them. I don't see a bayonet lug and the stock has a cheek piece. I believe Loyalist Dave has the best explanation.
     
  13. Apr 20, 2019 #13

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    58 Cal.

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,745
    Likes Received:
    132
    Location:
    Winchester, VA
    Could it be possible the lock and side plate were copied from a Baker rifle? The side plate looks right for that.
     
  14. Apr 20, 2019 #14

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    7,768
    Likes Received:
    549
    Location:
    People's Republic of Maryland
    Yes the side plate is very "baker". The cocks on many but not all Baker rifles were double throated.

    LD
     
  15. Apr 23, 2019 #15

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    Schyler Rippie

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you sir for the excellent feedback.
     
  16. Apr 23, 2019 #16

    Flint62Smoothie

    Flint62Smoothie

    Flint62Smoothie

    50 Cal.

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    NE Mass
    Side plate looks early Dutch to me ...
     

Share This Page



arrow_white