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I bought an original SXS

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smo

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When I wore a younger mans clothes, we shortened barrels too open the pattern... aka sawed off shotgun/ coach gun..
Exactly how well does it work sawing into a wire twist barrel?
 

vintovka

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Vint,
it is most common for the plugs to be a different color, as they are case-hardened.

My belief on this gun, is that it has fairly recently been fine -bored to remove pitting.
The breech -plugs were maybe somewhat rusty and hard to remove, and were cleaned up, resulting unfortunately in becoming a bit slack.
The flaw in the barrel at the breech could be a welding flaw, undetected when assembled but the loose material coming adrift later, or when 'recently' de-breeched..
Guns of any decent quality were regulated to pattern with the barrel length they had, so a shortened set of barrels May pattern well, or be got to do so, but can not be guaranteed. to do so like in their original length.
Best,
Richard.
Seems logical, The bores are a sharp contrast to plug condition. Again i have not seen a such a color difference like that. Most i have had are an even rust brown. I agree with the plug fit and flaw issues and a shame to do so given such a fine looking piece. I will add many exceptionally nice looking ones were those retired early from either a defect or the advent of cartridge arms.
 

dave tonge

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Has nobody said the bottom rib has been reset by an amateur no barrel maker in Birmingham would have sent a gun like that out of his shop .if he,s used a plumbers solder and flux the acid will do the barrels . the plugs should have needed a lot more effort to shift them having said that the plugs I have removed over the years have all been clean and unrusted . Its up to you wether you fire it or not but I totally agree with feltwad hang it on the wall or have a good black powder gunsmith strip it and check it for your own safety .
 
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Well, I didn't make it out. I helped my brother move some stuff, and we went squirrel hunting after. I've got tomorrow off from work, have everything loaded in the truck, so I'm fairly sure I'll try it tomorrow. About the breech plug color, the left plug is mostly brown, and the right plug is mostly blue. I can't tell what color the gun was originally. The barrel appears like it may have been brown, but most of the finish is gone leaving it mainly white. There are spots that are blue, and it appears the top rib may have been blue. The breech plugs do not look out of place when you look at the gun in hand as a whole. I've looked at the breech plug threads again, and in my mechanical-but-not-gunsmith opinion is that it is a failure of the steel. I see no evidence of gas cutting, or rust. I think it is the steel that chipped, possibly during threading, maybe not, that is for others to ponder. I also think it possible the "scars" in the left barrel were scratches that rusted. Running my fingers over them, they don't seem overly deep. Even with the possible backbore, the barrels are still surprisingly thick, far thicker than modern shotgun barrels. I should have taken a measurement.

@dave tonge, I see nothing out of place with the bottom rib. What specially are you referring to? Some of the pictures I took were as I was cleaning the gun, and was right after I took it out of the water, so keep that in mind. The breech plugs, I don't think it is unreasonable that somebody in the past had taken the plugs out to clean, and simply did not tighten them enough. I put them back in, no tape or anything else, and I'd guestimate they went in with 10 lb/ft of torque to align. I'd wish for a permanent fit, but if I built a gun with the intention of removing them, this is about how I'd want them.

I've heard a number of theory's on re proofing barrels. I'm starting to believe it is possible to do more harm, although I'm not convinced this is the case. Instead of loading it to the moon, I'm thinking I'll instead do a number of shots at a top end hunting load, say 110gr powder and 1 3/4 oz shot. If it can't handle that, then it was never safe. I'll surely be bummed if it lets go, which I do not think will happen. Even if it does, I will have something. I'll have an original I can hold in my hands when I build my own some day. It would be nice to hunt with it a while, but there is already things I like, and things I would do different.
 

smo

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Good thinking.... I think.
 

Pukka Bundook

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Mr. M,
I think you do right to not use too heavy a load, as it will be hard on the stock if not the barrels..
Re the party blue;
This sounds awfully like the breeches or one of them, May have been heated to help remove it. Same with the blue on the rib, .......overheating to remove the plugs? Some plugs are blue, but if only one is, it makes me wonder.
Your barrels are what was called a stub twist, and would be brown originally, and the plugs are normally bright or case-hardened But! they Do normally show up as brown , due to age and patina nowadays. All a bit complicated!

Here is a pic of how barrels look if re-browned. Variations of course, depending on twist and solution used.
dscn3076_105.jpg
 
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Good news all around today. I want to thank everyone for their input. I did read it all, and learned from it. Today I took it out and did a simple set up. I tied a rope around the barrels, and the front ramrod tube kept it from sliding off the front. I then tied it to a small tire I laid on the ground. This proved a fine set up for testing, and this way the stock did not take any force. The gun never came off the tire. I then ran a short rope tied to the triggers around the corner, and I hid on the other side of the silo. I started easy, and worked up. Things were going boringly smooth, so I decided to go for the gusto. I loaded 180 gr powder, and an equal volume of shot. This should be at least 2 1/2 oz of shot, if not 2 3/4 oz. Other than a couple incredibly loud booms, there was zero issues at all. The ramrod didn't even creep out. Nothing broke, nothing leaked, and nothing came loose. I then continued to shoot it by hand with lighter loads for about half an hour.
 

fleener

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180 grains and 2.5 oz or more of shot is a stiff load.

For what it is worth, I would not have gone nearly that high. While the load did not cause a failure, you also need to consider what harm you are doing to the metal that is undetected at this point. Metal cracks and you just don't want to add any new cracks that might cause a future failure and not a failure today.

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My guess is that the pressure of such a load is not nearly as crazy as some would believe. I really doubt it is much over 10,000 PSI. It's not that crazy. That's the reason I did it, I wanted to test it. I've read about the potential for causing damage, but at the same time I could not find a single case where a gun tested in such a way ever failed afterwards. That's besides the fact that it is very easy to double charge a SXS. I didn't want the first time I made a mistake to be dramatic. Now I know it is good to go.
 

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Good news everything went ok ,strip it down and examine those plugs also the ribs to see if any had worked loose . :thumb::thumb:
Feltwad
 

Britsmoothy

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Good news all around today. I want to thank everyone for their input. I did read it all, and learned from it. Today I took it out and did a simple set up. I tied a rope around the barrels, and the front ramrod tube kept it from sliding off the front. I then tied it to a small tire I laid on the ground. This proved a fine set up for testing, and this way the stock did not take any force. The gun never came off the tire. I then ran a short rope tied to the triggers around the corner, and I hid on the other side of the silo. I started easy, and worked up. Things were going boringly smooth, so I decided to go for the gusto. I loaded 180 gr powder, and an equal volume of shot. This should be at least 2 1/2 oz of shot, if not 2 3/4 oz. Other than a couple incredibly loud booms, there was zero issues at all. The ramrod didn't even creep out. Nothing broke, nothing leaked, and nothing came loose. I then continued to shoot it by hand with lighter loads for about half an hour.
So I was right then 🙄
 

Britsmoothy

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180 grains and 2.5 oz or more of shot is a stiff load.

For what it is worth, I would not have gone nearly that high. While the load did not cause a failure, you also need to consider what harm you are doing to the metal that is undetected at this point. Metal cracks and you just don't want to add any new cracks that might cause a future failure and not a failure today.

Fleener
Oh for Pete's sake 🤦‍♂️
 

Britsmoothy

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My guess is that the pressure of such a load is not nearly as crazy as some would believe. I really doubt it is much over 10,000 PSI. It's not that crazy. That's the reason I did it, I wanted to test it. I've read about the potential for causing damage, but at the same time I could not find a single case where a gun tested in such a way ever failed afterwards. That's besides the fact that it is very easy to double charge a SXS. I didn't want the first time I made a mistake to be dramatic. Now I know it is good to go.
I'm just glad you didnt listen to the prophets of doom. Miserable lot!
 

Rudyard

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Well I,ve read this post. I know & trust Pukka & Felt Wad . Notions of huge loads do not sit well with me .Your head of course but the 12 bore load seems quite enough given the circumstances .Had it blown there would be the usual bleating chorus berating twist barrels .
A ' thin crack' unless down by the breach is no more than that, a 'grey' not ideal but Ide ignore them , it would seem to have been' fannied' with. Felt Wads advise was sage and came from experience . You got away with it the gun stood . It shows how good twist & Damascus barrels are even the old double by Samuel Nock with the' Grey' I loaded down & shot for many forays after Rabbits Hares & Wood pigeons Till I traded it for a db 20 bore by Shaw of Manchester still have it 55 years later . You would be right to say we both took a risk but mine was further up the barrel at least .
Rudyard
 

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Well I do not think I am one of the miserable lot and a prophet of doom, educational yes with many years experience not like some repro armatures who spout forth a load of rubbish on originals they know very little about. Everything seemed to go well ,but it could have gone terrible wrong and he could now be laid in a hospital bed minus some part of a body. All I can say listen too experience advise be safe and ignore the ignorant just shoot it brigade
Feltwad
 

Britsmoothy

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Well I do not think I am one of the miserable lot and a prophet of doom, educational yes with many years experience not like some repro armatures who spout forth a load of rubbish on originals they know very little about. Everything seemed to go well ,but it could have gone terrible wrong and he could now be laid in a hospital bed minus some part of a body. All I can say listen too experience advise be safe and ignore the ignorant just shoot it brigade
Feltwad
What is a repro armature. Is that part of an electric motor?

You sir have not educated the original poster of anything but you did prophesy doom.
You have in the past indicated that you as many others have disassembled originals and rebuilt them. We have no proof of this just library photographs, please publish your credentials so we can be reassured of your claim to work conducted.
I for one have no qualifications or credentials but then again dont claim too! In fact I would prefer to remain an amateur ( armature?) after seeing how supposed professions turn out!
I have watched your contributions on many forums for many many years Brian but I never see any evidence or tutorials of you alleged work so please enlighten us all please. I'm sure I speak not just for myself here, I think many would enjoy it.
 

Feltwad

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What is a repro armature. Is that part of an electric motor?

You sir have not educated the original poster of anything but you did prophesy doom.
You have in the past indicated that you as many others have disassembled originals and rebuilt them. We have no proof of this just library photographs, please publish your credentials so we can be reassured of your claim to work conducted.
I for one have no qualifications or credentials but then again dont claim too! In fact I would prefer to remain an amateur ( armature?) after seeing how supposed professions turn out!
I have watched your contributions on many forums for many many years Brian but I never see any evidence or tutorials of you alleged work so please enlighten us all please. I'm sure I speak not just for myself here, I think many would enjoy it.
Sir I have no need to explain myself to you or anyone else my images on these forums which I have worked on speak for themselves they are not Library Photos you can name any type of a original gun from a matchlock to to a early breech loader and I have restored them all To but it bluntly I have restored more guns than you have had hot dinners long before you came into muzzle loading all I say grow up stop silly remarks and jealously gets you nowhere
Which Forums ?
Feltwad
 
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Britsmoothy

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Sir I have no need to explain myself to you or anyone else my images on these forums which I have worked on speak for themselves they are not Library Photos you can name any type of a original gun from a matchlock to to a early breech loader and I have restored them all To but it bluntly I have restored more guns than you have had hot dinners long before you came into muzzle loading all I say grow up stop silly remarks and jealously gets you no ware
Which Forums ?
Feltwad
You may well be correct regards how long I have been muzzleloading. But one place you have no jurisdiction or authority is how I remark on this forum thank you. That sir is for the owners and administration team of this forum, not you.
Now please, direct us to your work or tutorials?
 
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