My trade gun (Pedersoli) frizzen may be soft...not sure.
How does one harden a frizzen?
Brits :thumbsup:
How does one harden a frizzen?
Brits :thumbsup:
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How do you harden a frizzen?
- Thread starter Britsmoothy
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Hopefully there will be various techniques discussed!
To check the hardness take a file and draw it across the face of the frizzen. If it skips across without digging in the frizzen is hard enough.
zimmerstutzen
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The shade tree mechanic method I heard was to wrap the frizzen well with leather and then wire the leather fast and tight to the frizzen.
Place this wire/leather wrapped frizzen inside a lump of wet clay and make sure the whole thing is sealed within the clay and then put the ball of clay inside a sealed canister and place the whole works in a fire, making sure to heat the works up to red hot for several hours and then let the can and contents cool slowly in the coals over night. The frizzen steel will have been infused a layer if carbon molecules. Some swear this is the best method.
There was a substance called Kasenit, a coarse powder containing among other things a cyanide compound. (potassium ferrocyanide IIRC) The frizzen would be heated red and dipped into the Kasenit. Kasenit is no longer made. A more expensive similar product is called Cherry Red.
Most frizzens can be half soled with a thin piece of high carbon steel. I have had luck using old wind up clock spring and epoxy rough the mating surfaces of the frizzen and the spring. coat with expoxy, clamp together for 24 hours and then slowly without creating heat, grind the excess spring stock back to meet the edges of the frizzen.. I did my brother's TC Hawken frizzen 35 years ago, and it is still going strong.
Other sources for such thin stock are Dixie Gun Works, wide hack saw blades, reciprocating saw blades, etc. Even an old band saw blade.
Place this wire/leather wrapped frizzen inside a lump of wet clay and make sure the whole thing is sealed within the clay and then put the ball of clay inside a sealed canister and place the whole works in a fire, making sure to heat the works up to red hot for several hours and then let the can and contents cool slowly in the coals over night. The frizzen steel will have been infused a layer if carbon molecules. Some swear this is the best method.
There was a substance called Kasenit, a coarse powder containing among other things a cyanide compound. (potassium ferrocyanide IIRC) The frizzen would be heated red and dipped into the Kasenit. Kasenit is no longer made. A more expensive similar product is called Cherry Red.
Most frizzens can be half soled with a thin piece of high carbon steel. I have had luck using old wind up clock spring and epoxy rough the mating surfaces of the frizzen and the spring. coat with expoxy, clamp together for 24 hours and then slowly without creating heat, grind the excess spring stock back to meet the edges of the frizzen.. I did my brother's TC Hawken frizzen 35 years ago, and it is still going strong.
Other sources for such thin stock are Dixie Gun Works, wide hack saw blades, reciprocating saw blades, etc. Even an old band saw blade.
Black Hand
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Test it with a file. It should not "bite" easily.Britsmoothy said:
As to Kasenit, its purpose is to add carbon to a low-carbon steel and is more of a superficial treatment that wears through. A frizzen should be made of high-carbon steel, making Kasenit treatment unnecessary, though a proper heat-treatment (quench and temper) is required.
I have read that some have had problems with Pedersoli frizzens not being properly heat-treated. Perhaps they will comment as to the best approach to dealing with this issue.
Done the file thing and it does mark the frizzen but does not grab.
What has me wondering is the fint puts cut marks in the frizzen! Not deep just tiny dents.
Thanks everyone.
Brits.
What has me wondering is the fint puts cut marks in the frizzen! Not deep just tiny dents.
Thanks everyone.
Brits.
Black Hand
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Ultimately, the question is how well it sparks?
The frizzen needs to be a little soft (due to tempering) to prevent it from cracking/breaking from the impact (quenched but untempered steel can be/is very brittle). If the marks are minor, I wouldn't worry (IF it sparks well). If deep gouges are seen and you get poor/no sparks, then I would consider hardening (or getting a new frizzen installed that is made of good high-carbon steel).
Another traditional method of addressing a worn or soft frizzen was half-soling, but that is another "ball of wax" altogether...
The frizzen needs to be a little soft (due to tempering) to prevent it from cracking/breaking from the impact (quenched but untempered steel can be/is very brittle). If the marks are minor, I wouldn't worry (IF it sparks well). If deep gouges are seen and you get poor/no sparks, then I would consider hardening (or getting a new frizzen installed that is made of good high-carbon steel).
Another traditional method of addressing a worn or soft frizzen was half-soling, but that is another "ball of wax" altogether...
The file should leave a polished look but not actually cut into the frizzen if it is at the correct hardness.
For those who watched the video where the guy put the frizzen into a can full of leather, don't bother.
The heat that was used is not hot enough to cause any of the carbon to penetrate the steel.
That said, almost all frizzens on today's flintlocks are made from a thru hardening steel.
That basically means the steel already has the needed carbon to harden it.
If your bound and determined to harden your frizzen you will need a file, a source of heat that can heat the metal to a red-orange color and a can of oil.
After removing the frizzen, hold it with a pair of pliers and heat it until the entire part is glowing bright red-orange. Keep it this color for a little while and then instantly dump it into the oil while it is still that color.
If it doesn't crack or break, after it has cooled it should be so hard the file will barely leave a shiny mark.
Test it with the file and see if this is true.*
Typically, this is too hard and if used this way it can shatter like glass when the flint hits it.
To keep this from happening, heat your oven to 425 degrees F.
Place the frizzen into the oven and bake it for 1/2 hour. Remove it and let it air cool.
This process is know as "tempering".
* If the frizzen is soft and the file cuts into it, reheat it as before to the red-orange color but this time dump it rapidly into a can of water.
Carbon steel, unlike alloy steel that can use the oil quench, requires the more drastic water quench to harden it.
This does raise the possibility of cracking the material but that is the hazard of making the part out of a carbon steel.
If, after the water quench the steel is still soft then your frizzen is made out of a low carbon steel (or you didn't heat it hot enough before quenching).
A low carbon steel does need carbon added and a product like Casenit or Cherry Red can do this using home heating sources.
The problem with these carburizing materials is they need to be kept at the red-orange heat for at least 15 minutes for the carbon to penetrate more than a few thousandths of an inch deep.
This requires adding more of the material while keeping the part red-orange hot.
After adding the carbon, dump the part directly into a water quench.
If carburizing was the only way to get the frizzen to harden, it will not need tempering because the core below the carbon layer will still be soft, tough steel.
For those who watched the video where the guy put the frizzen into a can full of leather, don't bother.
The heat that was used is not hot enough to cause any of the carbon to penetrate the steel.
That said, almost all frizzens on today's flintlocks are made from a thru hardening steel.
That basically means the steel already has the needed carbon to harden it.
If your bound and determined to harden your frizzen you will need a file, a source of heat that can heat the metal to a red-orange color and a can of oil.
After removing the frizzen, hold it with a pair of pliers and heat it until the entire part is glowing bright red-orange. Keep it this color for a little while and then instantly dump it into the oil while it is still that color.
If it doesn't crack or break, after it has cooled it should be so hard the file will barely leave a shiny mark.
Test it with the file and see if this is true.*
Typically, this is too hard and if used this way it can shatter like glass when the flint hits it.
To keep this from happening, heat your oven to 425 degrees F.
Place the frizzen into the oven and bake it for 1/2 hour. Remove it and let it air cool.
This process is know as "tempering".
* If the frizzen is soft and the file cuts into it, reheat it as before to the red-orange color but this time dump it rapidly into a can of water.
Carbon steel, unlike alloy steel that can use the oil quench, requires the more drastic water quench to harden it.
This does raise the possibility of cracking the material but that is the hazard of making the part out of a carbon steel.
If, after the water quench the steel is still soft then your frizzen is made out of a low carbon steel (or you didn't heat it hot enough before quenching).
A low carbon steel does need carbon added and a product like Casenit or Cherry Red can do this using home heating sources.
The problem with these carburizing materials is they need to be kept at the red-orange heat for at least 15 minutes for the carbon to penetrate more than a few thousandths of an inch deep.
This requires adding more of the material while keeping the part red-orange hot.
After adding the carbon, dump the part directly into a water quench.
If carburizing was the only way to get the frizzen to harden, it will not need tempering because the core below the carbon layer will still be soft, tough steel.
Thankyou everyone.
As the file does not cut but wants to glide I shall leave it alone.
Zonies description matches my experience on other projects and am glad he enforced my assumptions :hatsoff:
Brits.
As the file does not cut but wants to glide I shall leave it alone.
Zonies description matches my experience on other projects and am glad he enforced my assumptions :hatsoff:
Brits.
The proof of the pudding is the eating. Go into a dark room, and fire the unloaded gun. If you get a decent shower of sparks, you are good to go.
Step 2: go to the range, using real black powder in the pan, see if it ignites and if the main charge goes off.
Step 2: go to the range, using real black powder in the pan, see if it ignites and if the main charge goes off.
Carbon-rich case hardening can arguably also be done by hardening the suface with an oil spray quench or quick dunk in oil from red hot -- the surface takes on carbon and hardens whilst the core air cools at a slower, tempering, rate and maintains ductility.
The Hitites found the perfect combination of oil and water to surface carbon quench a sword was a human body and they would quickly stab a red-hot sword into a slave...
The Hitites found the perfect combination of oil and water to surface carbon quench a sword was a human body and they would quickly stab a red-hot sword into a slave...
54ball
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Stop....
Think...
I gather from your review post that this is a new or relatively new gun?
Every new flintlock I've ever owned had problems when they were new. From the best in quality locks to a low end Spanish Maslin. What they all had in common was, they all improved significantly and with out any major rework.
Frizzen hardness or lack thereof immediately gets the blame for poor lock performance. While a lock may have a harness problem, simple and easy fixes need to be tried first. Once all the little things are ruled out, that leaves the bigger issues like harness, geometry and spring strength.
From experience I am convinced that most sparking issues with a new lock are frizzen surface issues, not frizzen hardness issues.
The frizzen surface on a new lock, unless it's been tuned is most of the time very rough. It may appear smooth but imagine how it would look under a microscope. Since it's rough with microscopic ridges and valleys, it could be the correct harness and not spark well.
Why?
The ridges catch the flint, dampen the strike, damage the flint and if rough enough can damage the frizzen with gouges. Symptoms of this are deep chatter marks, maybe a streak of flint on the frizzen, flint bashing, short flint life and gouges under the chatter marks where the rough surface has allowed the now damaged flint to "dig in" even if it had the correct hardness.
Remedy...Polish that frizzen surface with up to 600 grit Emory cloth. I would start at 300 grit. You need a surface where the flint can skate over the surface instead of digging in. Polishing the frizzen also allows the flint to easily skate over the chatter marks.
Eventually the surface will work harden somewhat with use. Having a slick surface to begin with head starts that process.
After polishing and you still get damage and no spark it may indeed be too soft.
After polishing and you have no or weak sparks with no surface damage, it could be too hard.
Other simple things to consider, flint angle, flints themselves, flint too far fore or aft, binding in stock or inside of inlet.
Just rule out the simple stuff first.
Think...
I gather from your review post that this is a new or relatively new gun?
Every new flintlock I've ever owned had problems when they were new. From the best in quality locks to a low end Spanish Maslin. What they all had in common was, they all improved significantly and with out any major rework.
Frizzen hardness or lack thereof immediately gets the blame for poor lock performance. While a lock may have a harness problem, simple and easy fixes need to be tried first. Once all the little things are ruled out, that leaves the bigger issues like harness, geometry and spring strength.
From experience I am convinced that most sparking issues with a new lock are frizzen surface issues, not frizzen hardness issues.
The frizzen surface on a new lock, unless it's been tuned is most of the time very rough. It may appear smooth but imagine how it would look under a microscope. Since it's rough with microscopic ridges and valleys, it could be the correct harness and not spark well.
Why?
The ridges catch the flint, dampen the strike, damage the flint and if rough enough can damage the frizzen with gouges. Symptoms of this are deep chatter marks, maybe a streak of flint on the frizzen, flint bashing, short flint life and gouges under the chatter marks where the rough surface has allowed the now damaged flint to "dig in" even if it had the correct hardness.
Remedy...Polish that frizzen surface with up to 600 grit Emory cloth. I would start at 300 grit. You need a surface where the flint can skate over the surface instead of digging in. Polishing the frizzen also allows the flint to easily skate over the chatter marks.
Eventually the surface will work harden somewhat with use. Having a slick surface to begin with head starts that process.
After polishing and you still get damage and no spark it may indeed be too soft.
After polishing and you have no or weak sparks with no surface damage, it could be too hard.
Other simple things to consider, flint angle, flints themselves, flint too far fore or aft, binding in stock or inside of inlet.
Just rule out the simple stuff first.
I would look at flint angle first if it is digging into the face of the frizzen -- it should not slam into the frizzen perpendicular. Depending on how the frizzen was heat treated and its design you could be polishing off (maybe all) its hard, carbon, steel with that sandpaper...
nwtradegun
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remove the lock and insure flint is in jaw correctly. go into a dark room, no lights ad trip the cock. you should get white sparks orange or dull red meens frizzen is in need of hardening. the leather route has never worked when I have seen it done. best to contact flintlocks and more for a pro job
54ball
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OK that may have been true for a 18th Century frizzen hammered out of wrought iron and and case hardened in a crucible. But that same frizzen was a more finely made part than a modern investment cast part. By finely made I mean smoother since it was made by hand.
Secondly, a modern made frizzen should be made out of higher carbon steel throughout. So there should be no need to crucible case harden a modern frizzen at all.
Now the part may need to be annealed, tempered or quenched hardened but that is a heat treatment process to a part that already "should" have the right carbon content in it when the steel was manufactured.
Lastly, in the 18th Century on occasion the parts coming out of the crucible, sometimes would show case colors. For an 18th Century lockmaker, especially English; case colors were a flaw. The colors and even the gray from the hardening process was polished bright and this was on parts that did indeed have a "skin" of higher carbon steel from the hardening process.
All I was saying was sometimes the modern investment cast stuff is rough and hard on frizzens and flints. A simple 5 minute polish has done a world of good for me from a Chambers Ketland that ate flints like nobodies business when new to a Traditions Maslin that eventually proved to be a good little lock.
The OP needs to try simple stuff first, be patient and realize sometimes a new flintlock needs to break in to perform it's best.
If he were to actually sand through the hardening, a simple crucible full of grits packed around the part and 6 hours on the forge will fix it. :blah:
Secondly, a modern made frizzen should be made out of higher carbon steel throughout. So there should be no need to crucible case harden a modern frizzen at all.
Now the part may need to be annealed, tempered or quenched hardened but that is a heat treatment process to a part that already "should" have the right carbon content in it when the steel was manufactured.
Lastly, in the 18th Century on occasion the parts coming out of the crucible, sometimes would show case colors. For an 18th Century lockmaker, especially English; case colors were a flaw. The colors and even the gray from the hardening process was polished bright and this was on parts that did indeed have a "skin" of higher carbon steel from the hardening process.
All I was saying was sometimes the modern investment cast stuff is rough and hard on frizzens and flints. A simple 5 minute polish has done a world of good for me from a Chambers Ketland that ate flints like nobodies business when new to a Traditions Maslin that eventually proved to be a good little lock.
The OP needs to try simple stuff first, be patient and realize sometimes a new flintlock needs to break in to perform it's best.
If he were to actually sand through the hardening, a simple crucible full of grits packed around the part and 6 hours on the forge will fix it. :blah:
I recently went to learn how a modern lock builder hardens frizzens for a quality lock company. The frizzens were heated from the front, not the face, so the entire part of the frizzen that is perpendicular to the gun barrel is hardened. The temperature was dark yellow, quite a bit hotter than orange-red, and the piece was quenched in quenching oil. That was it for that style of lock, while a different lock had the same hardening for its frizzen but had the frizzen tempered in an oven. I was amazed that the frizzens were treated differently, but that's how the company requires them to be made. The builder showed me how a file would "skate" across the face of the frizzen instead of biting.
LD
LD
