How do U compensate for various distance with your ML?

Discussion in 'General Muzzleloading' started by Larry (Omaha), Apr 29, 2019.

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum by donating:

  1. Apr 30, 2019 #21

    Richard Dittman

    Richard Dittman

    Richard Dittman

    32 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2019
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    10
    I’m fairly new to bp shooting, but shoot in competition only. I have a T/C 50 cal Hawken and a 50 cal T/C New Englander. I usually adjust the elevation of the rear sight. Although I do adjust the powder charge between 50 and 100 yards. I am still working on developing a good load and sight elevation for the various ranges
     
  2. Apr 30, 2019 #22

    Logcutter

    Logcutter

    Logcutter

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2018
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    98
    Location:
    North West PA
    Being relaxed, calm, steady, what ever word you want to use. I think that's half the battle
     
    Juice Jaws likes this.
  3. May 1, 2019 #23

    Eterry

    Eterry

    Eterry

    45 Cal.

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    132
    Over on the N-SSA site there's lots of good info by guys who mostly compete, and not as many hunters as here.

    One gentleman i spoke with about my 1863 Remington ( w/ folding rear sights) said he ignores the V, and instead drills a peep in each folding leaf, set to different distances.

    I haven't shot my '63 much... but may consider his info.

    Many there talk of one load for each distance, to flatten the looping trajectory.

    Check them out.

    www.n-ssa.net
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  4. May 1, 2019 #24

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8,951
    Likes Received:
    595
    Larry,

    I think I did not make myself clear, so I will try it again on adjusting the rear sight. I did not mean attempting or actually moving the rear sight, once you get it set up for all the distances you shoot. Rather it is best to set it up so the groups are as close to center as can be at all ranges you shoot.

    Allow me to give an example. Let's say when you use at center aiming point at all distances you find at 25 yards the rifle shoots 5 inches to the left, at 50 it shoots 3 inches to the left and at 100 it shoots 1 inch to the left. Well, that 5 inches to the left at 25 yards is outside a person's "wobble area" and one would have to deliberately try to hold to the right to compensate. Far better to move the rear sight so the groups are closer to center, but maybe not perfectly centered at 25 yards or then the groups at 100 might be/would be too far outside your wobble area. Perhaps it would in this case be better to move the rear sight to the right a little so the groups strike 1 1/2 to 2 inches to the left and then the groups at 100 would be slightly to the right, but all the groups would be inside your wobble area at each range.

    The point I was trying to make is with fixed sights that you won't move, it can be better to sort of "split the difference" where you put the rear sight so it comes close to center at all distances, because most times it will be impossible for the windage to be correct at all three distances.

    Gus
    .
     
  5. May 1, 2019 #25

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8,951
    Likes Received:
    595
    Larry, sorry there was something else I forgot to mention.

    My Target Accuracy load in my old hand built .45 flint rifle with Douglas Barrel is 42 1/2 grains of FFFg powder and that had plenty of "oomph" to keep accuracy at 100 yards. I wasn't going for the least powder charge at short range, but rather the most accurate load. Yet, I did not think that enough "oomph" to shoot mid to large size game.

    So I increased the powder charge while still looking for an accurate Hunting load with a larger powder charge, that did not hold groups quite as tight as the Target Load, but close. I found that load at 75 grains of FFFg powder in that rifle. Now, had my Target Accuracy Load not had enough "oomph" at 100 yards to get good groups at that distance, I would have used the 75 grain load on 100 yard targets.

    Back when I began shooting ML's in the early 70's, it was common knowledge that each rifle would have a lighter Target Accuracy load and a heavier charge Hunting load that would be enough for shooting mid to large size game, but still hold fairly tight groups. So going to a heavier charge for 100 yards is not out of the question as long as you find the load that shoots the best with a larger charge.

    Gus
     
  6. May 3, 2019 #26

    Larry (Omaha)

    Larry (Omaha)

    Larry (Omaha)

    45 Cal. MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gus,
    I realize the red text by you is only an example, but it does not seem a reasonable one. No disrespect intended. POI can and does change with distance plus or minus of center, If it is not on center at the closest target. It increases with distance and decreases with shots closer to the gun. I do not believe I have ever encountered what you have described. ( I am referring to windage)
    Larry
     
  7. May 3, 2019 #27

    BlackHillsBob

    BlackHillsBob

    BlackHillsBob

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    140
    a lot of shooters dont realize that if they do a lot of .22 long rifle shooting the kentucky windage is about the same for a muzzleloader. if your really really good with a standard .22 long rifle then you can shoot a flinter and percussion well also. about the same kentucky windage. i have hit prairie dogs at 300 yards with a .22 long rifle and have also with a 45/70 and a front stuffer. they shoot about the same.
     
    flntlokr likes this.
  8. May 3, 2019 #28

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8,951
    Likes Received:
    595
    Hi Larry,

    Absolutely no offense taken at all.

    In the example I'm describing the possible first group/s, before one moves the rear sight to better align it for windage. If effect, that rifle is shooting to the left and more so, the further back it goes. This even though the first groups hit to the right of the target. Now because the example rifle shoots more to left the further the range, I'm suggesting one doesn't want to try to exactly center the groups at 25 yards, because the rifle will shoot way to the left at 100 and way outside most Shooters' wobble area. This is why I suggest moving the rear sight so the groups are still just a bit to the right at 25 yards and that way the groups won't be WAY to Left at 100 yards.

    Of course I'm also referring to Offhand shooting at all the distances, if one is shooting from sitting or prone, then it is much easier to "Hold OFF" to the right at 100 yards to compensate.

    Gus
     
  9. May 3, 2019 #29

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8,951
    Likes Received:
    595
    Of course, if one is going to be shooting at really fine targets like taught strings or double blade axe bits (to split the ball on the blade and have each half hit a clay pigeon on either side), then it is probably best to center the windage at 25 yards and just deal with the rifle shooting so far to the left at 100 yards, as in the example.

    But if one is shooting at round bullseyes or even different larger targets than mentioned above, I would suggest leaving the Rear sight so the rifle shoots just a bit to the right at 25 yards.

    Gus
     
  10. May 3, 2019 #30

    S.Kenton

    S.Kenton

    S.Kenton

    58 Cal.

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,414
    Likes Received:
    84
    Location:
    Ohio, the land of the Shawnee
    Kentucky windage is what I use. I hunt a lot, and I’ll load with my most accurate load, then use Kentucky windage to adjust if needed.
     
    Artificer likes this.
  11. May 3, 2019 #31

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Artificer

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    8,951
    Likes Received:
    595
    What many folks may not know is that even with the most accurate, adjustable sight, unmentionable rifles: one still has to use Kentucky Windage if the wind changes during a single stage of firing on one target at one range.

    Gus
     
  12. May 3, 2019 #32

    Sun City

    Sun City

    Sun City

    36 Cal.

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2016
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Clear Lake Richland Parish
    S&HS!
     
  13. May 4, 2019 #33

    flntlokr

    flntlokr

    flntlokr

    Pilgrim

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    9
    I set up my rifles point-blank at 50 yd. 25 yd is almost the same hold, because the trajectory is almost flat (rising a bit) to 50 from there. With a ball speed of about 1200fps, I have to hold about 6 inches high for 100. Set for center at 50, its on center everywhere out as far as it will shoot. I cannot think of any reason why the trajectory would wander from side to side, except for wind effects, which can usually be ignored out to about 50 yd. Wind plays a much bigger role as the ball slows down.
     
  14. May 5, 2019 #34

    Sun City

    Sun City

    Sun City

    36 Cal.

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2016
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Clear Lake Richland Parish
    I'm reading some strange stuff!!
     
  15. May 5, 2019 #35

    45man

    45man

    45man

    32 Cal. MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    74
    I adjust my sights to center but wind must be taken out. I shot IHMSA when I had to aim at the next ram at 200 meters to hit what i was shooting at. Kentucky windage for sure. I would adjust for 50 meters and never, ever touched the windage adjustment again. Only elevation was changed.
    Now there is a problem with twist rates and the S&W revolver with a 240 gr could be seen through a spotting scope. The bullet would revolve around the flight path like a corkscrew. Going to a 250 gr bullet and the bullet flew straight. Watching a friends bullet from a 30-30 TC, the bullet was going to the next ram and swung back to hit the ram he was shooting at. I sold him the TC and it would shoot pennies at 100 yards with cast bullets. Moneyshot.jpg
     
  16. May 6, 2019 #36

    Rattus58

    Rattus58

    Rattus58

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    7
    In my opinions... if you zero at 50, you're good for 75 straight out. If you zero at 75, you're good to 90 straight out. Beyond that... for hunting that is, PASS. Burgers and the like... :) At a 75 yard zero for my guns, I'd have to add roughly 8-9 inches each 25 yards beyond. Top of the back for hunting. Having a familiarity with your guns performance tho is best actually shot. Wherever your zero is, and whatever you contemplate being your longest shots, I'd think you'd actually want to shoot it in at least 25 yard increments just to know. Long Range Shooting can get pretty complex, and adequate computer programs assist there immensely... as well as scopes... but really... I'm 50-75 at most... :D
     
  17. May 6, 2019 #37

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    7,858
    Likes Received:
    614
    Location:
    People's Republic of Maryland
    It may also depend on your loads. A lot of the targets are using standardized "bullseye" black areas. So once you know those you can choose one for sighting in. For me a "lollipop" hold at fifty yards at a 8" bull, means at 75 yards I'm on the center of the bull, and at 100 yards, I aim just a tad above the center of the bull. Alas for my local range...50 yards is downhill a bit, and 75 not as much of an angle, and 100 yards (depending on where you staple the target to the stand) is either level with me or a teeny bit high. Seems to work for me for hitting deer though.
    LOLLIPOP Sight Picuture at 50.jpg
    50 yard


    LOLLIPOP Sight Picutre at 50.jpg
    75 yard


    LOLLIPOP Sight Picture at 100.jpg
    100 yard

    LD
     
  18. May 6, 2019 #38

    Rattus58

    Rattus58

    Rattus58

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    7
    Very nice presentation! I don't shoot paper much and when I do, the target dot is just a dot and pretty much, though with a post front sight 6 o'clock and on target are just about equal, when my bullets fall short (low) or beyond (high), the condition that sent them there are pretty much constant. I used to shoot at a 4" bull (square) at 100 yards and the goal was all in the black. That pretty much is how I am today as well and my approach serves for what I do. I try to now shoot at the smallest target I can see, and I'm not zeroing at 100 anymore... usually at 50 and sometimes to 75.
     
    Itwasthewind likes this.
  19. May 6, 2019 #39

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    7,858
    Likes Received:
    614
    Location:
    People's Republic of Maryland
    Thank you for the compliment.
    The circles in my home-made illustrations are not to scale, there are just to give the reader an idea of the idea that I'm trying to convey.

    I forgot to mention what when one gets reasonably "good" with bullseyes at known distances, one should try "novelty" targets and at odd distances. The fact that you're not shooting at a standard size impact area on a known target will get you to work on range estimation, AND if you're hitting pretty close if not "on" at those odd distances, you'll get a lot more experience and confidence in your sight picture.

    LD
     
    S.Kenton and Rattus58 like this.
  20. May 6, 2019 #40

    BlackHillsBob

    BlackHillsBob

    BlackHillsBob

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    140
    again i will reply that if you get good with a .22 long rifle and kentucy windage on it, the same can be used on a flinter or percussion.
     
    Rattus58 likes this.

Share This Page



arrow_white