How did they carry cap and ball fixin's?

[Brokenlaig]

It's a question of the location of the user. The town dweller, by and large, would have simply left his powder and ball at home. It's unlikely he would have the time to reload should he empty his revolver. Many of the revolvers sold were accompanied by a flask for powder, and balls and caps came in tins, as did bulk powder. Prefabricated paper cartridges were available for revolvers just about immediately (they'd been around for other firearms for a very long time)and were probably the most common reload used in cities. If he carried reloads, the small box of cartridges could be wrapped into a piece of paper with a capper and would take up very little room in a pocket.
Remember, male Victorian dress almost always included a coat with several pockets (many, many men carried pistols in pockets like these)so this would not have been a problem
Out in the field, a flask for powder, a small bag for ball and capper with a tin of caps would answer for shooting fixin's, although-again-ready made cartridges were available and probably saw some use. These would certainly have been kept on the horse, although the wise fella might keep a box of ready-mades about him just in case.

 

[Heelerau]

Using a bit of reconstructive archeology, when I go on a day hunt and if carrying a cap and ball, the extra fixings are back in camp, if on horseback, they are in my saddlebag. I wear a vest, the capper is on the fob end of my watch chain. I am not worried about spear men in the bush ( to busy off stealing cars) so extra ammo is not an issue. If I have made paper cartridges, I would carry them in a small wooden block in my possibles bag. My guess back then would be extra pistols on self and on pommel if you were border raider.

cheers

Heelerau :stir:

 

[Ringel05]

While the debate still rages on common usage it is known that some individual Civil War officers and many guerrilla units, both north and south carried extra loaded cylinders for both the Colt and the Remington. We also know it was done pre-war as noted in WW Averells book, Ten Years in the Saddle.

As for how extensive it was used by civilians/military after the WBTS is anyones guess as we have no documentation not to mention the fact that replacement cylinders were expensive even back then.

Generally sidearms didn't have much accuracy past 50 yards and were the last ditch weapon before resorting to edged weapons, empty firearm "clubs" and fists.

 

[htredneck]

The Pony Express used to have their riders carry two pistols and a carbine. They gave up the weight of the carbine and extra pistol in favor of carrying an extra loaded cylinder. I don't remember offhand how many cylinders it was though...

 

[Ringel05]

The Pony Express used to have their riders carry two pistols and a carbine. They gave up the weight of the carbine and extra pistol in favor of carrying an extra loaded cylinder. I don't remember offhand how many cylinders it was though...

I can't find it now, book reference (those books of mine are now sold or in storage) that many Confederate cavalry men, specifically the irregulars, carried multiple revolvers and multiple cylinders.
As for paper cartridges for revolvers? Pretty sure that would have been the exception not the rule as anyone who has loaded a black powder revolver more than once would know how much of a pain it would be trying to fit a paper cartridge into each chamber. Not to mention how much extra room taken up by the paper part of the cartridge reducing the amount of powder in each load.

 

[BillinOregon]

The extra cylinder solution has its good and bad points. Bad: If kept capped, high degree of danger if dropped or struck; extra cost; with the Colt, a very fumbly reload, not bad at all with Remington.
Good: Even with a Colt, still a pretty fast reload in a tight spot, especially if pin, arbor and wedge are properly adjusted; powder ball and caps are all where they need to be.

 

[coloradoclyde]

check this out.
http://youtu.be/Chai_DxkEpk

 

[thecapgunkid]

The closest I got to this issue was when I began to use a Pietta Navy during cowboy action shooting. I would not have done this but smokeless powder is so tight out there that the alternative was to stop shooting.

Because you work the range in between shooting a particular stage, reloading a cap and ball can be difficult to do being rushed. I use five cylinders, one for each stage, mostly because todays guns are engineered so tightly that the parts are readily interchangeable. They index well and flush.

Even a Colt replica will reload quickly this way, and we cap at the loading table before actually shooting the stage. Several gunsmith have told me that 19th/ 20th century replica cylinders had to be fitted, tho.

What you tend to see when looking at 19th century photo's is guys carrying up to three or four pistols tucked into their belts. I dunno if this is just for the pose or really meant for battle.

If the alternative is a single shot, then maybe that ain't so bed.

This is a good question, especially since I am only as good as my guncart...

 

[crockett]

One issue, which may never be known for sure, is how many percussion revolvers were loaded with powder from a flask and loose balls as compared to being loaded with combustible paper cartridges. When it comes to documentation it seems like the burden of proof is put on the shoulders of those claiming the combustible cartridges were the most common method. In other words no one seems to be saying "prove a flask and loose balls were common". Supply such documentation. The assumption is the flask and ball was the more common. I myself started with that view because that's how all of us shoot our replicas.
Unfortunately we may never know the answer. The Colt Presentation or cased sets had compartments for both loose balls/flask and also cartridge packets. Both were included. When Hickok turned in a bill for ammunition in Abilene (might have been Hays?) if I recall it was for something like 6,000 foil cartridges and the town fathers were a little upset at the bill. The inference is none of the bill apparently included sums for powder and balls. The other issue is the number of surviving percussion revolvers but what seems like a lesser number of surviving flasks, etc.- it seems to be out of proportion.
I think it is pretty fair to say that in the Civil War the Union soldiers used combustible paper cartridges. Although the Army manual gave instructions on how to load a percussion revolver with flask and ball I have tried and failed to find any U.S. issue flasks for Cavalry men or anything about how such would be carried and used. The Confederate arsenals (Richmond) also turned out the combustible cartridges but my feeling is the economy strapped South might have used flasks on occasions. On the Union combustible cartridges, from what I've read at least 30 million rounds were sold to the Army. I believe it was all they used.
For those on the frontier, as I said, my findings are that both were used. If you were the average "Joe" you probably carried two percussion revolvers and hoped 12 rounds was all you needed. You might have carried a packet or two of combustible ammunition. For the lawman, I read that they preferred loading from a flask because the balls were more accurate and you could use more powder, so packets of combustible ammunition was used for back up. On the flask and balls, etc. Unfortunately I've found nothing. It would be great to read "my horse ran off so all the ammunition I had was gone" or " I reached into my belt bag to reload my revolver". As I said, I myself have found nothing. My "guess" is they kept the flask, etc. in a saddle bag.

 

[The O'Dea]

Gentlemen,
My main interest lies in the post Mexican War (1848-61) dragoon era. The 2nd Dragoons preferred Colts revolving pistol, and the old 1st liked their 'Common holster' pistol (M1842). That said, I have several combat reports from New Mexican, and Washington Territories. At the Steptoe battle, 1858, fought in Washington territory three(3) companies of the 1st were armed with Colts revolving pistol. Many years later several relic revolvers were found on Col Steptoe's route of march. All were loaded. The fact that the Colts large Dragoon flask was still in use is indicated by the fact the chambers were loaded unevenly. That same flask is offered today, and every time that I load my M1848 revolver I experience the same problems that the troopers of old experienced I am unable to get an even powder flow. So, from my research I believe that paper cartridges first saw use in the Civil War.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

 

[crockett]

Thanks, valuable information. I know nothing about Dragoon Flasks so I have something new to learn about. I know there was some sort of loading tool for the earlier Patterson revolvers.
On the military's use of the combustible cartridges, that's been my take, that the first major use was the Civil War. I originally jumped to the conclusion that the cartridges themselves therefore first appeared around the time of the Civil War. As I understand matters, Sam Colt was a true visionary and came up with the idea of a combustible cartridge almost as early as he came up with a working revolver. My sense is that Colt alone was pushing the idea in various forms (foil cases, linen paper cases, etc.) until around the Civil War and then a whole bunch of other manufacturers (D.C. Sage and others) got into the business on the idea of selling to the Federal Army.
If truth be told, I haven't really done much about the arms used in the Mexican War. Whole new area.

 

[smoothshooter]

I think it likely that if paper or foil cartridges were available and plentiful, and furnished by the taxpayers, then that is what most people would have used. It is also likely many people, when having to buy their own ammunition, loaded from a flask when time was not very critical, saving the more precious cartridges for loading when there was more of a sense of urgency.

 

[crockett]

Well, it's the weekend but the thought just hit me, Colt used to have a company historian. I'll try Monday to see if he is still around and knows anything as far as whether Colt sold their combustible cartridges only to the military or to the general public and in what amounts. I never thought about it but maybe there are some records still around.
Off hand, (just a guess) I have always thought of the combustibles as mostly for military use and by Western Lawmen. All others probably had a flask and loose balls and might have bought a packet or two of the combustible stuff that was carried in a vest pocket and never used.
In any event, to get back to the original question, when I started shooting percussion revolvers a million years ago I made what I thought was a neat "belt bag" with fringe and the whole works and carried my supplies on my belt but then noticed that such things never are seen in the old photos.
Now a days if I'm carrying my percussion revolver in the woods, I have a small Altoid tin filled with caps and paper tubes containing powder and ball. Speed loaders.

 

[Zonie]

Just to give folks something to munch on.

In the book COLONEL COLT LONDON, by Joseph G. Rosa the subject of ammunition comes up in several places.

On page 212 is a picture of Patent drawing No 1324 dated A.D.1855, June. 9 for the COLT & ELEY'S Specification. It shows 9 different figures depicting the pointed bullet, the bullet with a tubular foil container for the gunpowder attached to it and different packaging's.

The adjacent text says the string attached to the base of the foil container was pulled away just after starting the cartridge into the chamber. This tore the metal foil at its base, revealing the powder to the flash of the cap.

Colt and Eley had formed a partnership in 1854 and Eley supplied millions of caps and foil cartridges for the Colt revolver.

Much of this was purchased by the British Army and Royal Navy to support the 23,694 Colt pistols that were bought by them between 1851 and 1856.

 

[Brian the Brit]

Although I can add nothing to the original poster's query, I have experimented with home made cartridges in my Uberti Colt 1860 .44 repro with great success.

Initially I tried making combustible paper cartridges using cigarette paper but these proved to be flimsy and they left unburnt residues in the chambers, some of which were blown back into the nipples and proved very difficult to clear.

To date, I've had most success with 'tinfoil' ball cartridges. The Colt originals were, I understand, made from real tinfoil that was imported into England from Belgium. As tinfoil is no longer available, I made mine from good quality aluminium baking foil. The resulting cartridges are more durable than paper, easier to load and more reliable as they have not yet blocked the nipples.

The picture shows some of my cartridges together with the simple cutting template and wooden dowel mandrel that I whittled and sanded to shape. I have used round balls rather than conical bullets although the former are a bit more fiddly to glue into the cartridge mouths than straight sided projectiles.

To make the cartridges I simply wrap the foil around the mandrel using a glue stick ('Pritt' in the UK) to seal the tube. The base is folded over, glued and then pressed flat on the bench. 27 grains of powder are poured into the tube and a glued ball is then seated on the powder and the foil is sealed around the ball.

The balls were cast from a Lee .457 mould (left over from my Ruger 'Old Army') and despite being oversized they are quick and easy to load into the chambers. I then cover the loads with a Crisco type shortening ('Trex' in the UK.)

I have tried to make similar cartridges using the Lee .450 conical bullet but so far without success as I can't get them to seat in the cylinder mouths due to the lack of clearance in the loading cutout.

Colt's original instructions to tinfoil cartridge users including pricking the base of the cartridge prior to loading to ensure that a trickle of powder was immediately under the nipple to guarantee ignition. I have not found this to be necessary. I recently fired 42 consecutive rounds without misfire and without any cleaning other than to remove the odd scraps of foil from the chambers between loadings.

I think that the cartridge manufacturers' decision to supply them in boxes of six suggests that unlike modern shooters who go to the range to spend hours firing their revolvers at targets, their 19C counterparts used them much less frivolously and hence consumed far less ammunition.

From a practical point of view, foil cartridges are quick and easy to make at home and allow precise control over powder weight. At the range they are very quick and easy to load and so far have caused no ignition problems during extensive use.

 

[Zonie]

Somewhat off topic, I think the British Colt cartridge for the .36 caliber revolver might be of interest.

The quote is from page 204, "COLONEL COLT LONDON" , speaking of a conical bullet and was approved by the British in 1863.

Bullet weight: 135 grains (of pure lead with 2 cannelures, into the bottom one of which is turned and fastened the skin of the powder case).
Length of bullet: 0.612-inch.
Diameter: 0.38-inch.
Charge: 13 grains medium rifle powder.
Cartridge: 1.27 inches (skin).

I highlighted the powder load to show that the thinking about the power needed has changed considerably over the years. :rotf:

 

[Homesteader]

Wow, that's not much more than we used to use for paper target loads! I wonder if they filled space with Cream of Wheat, the way we used to do? :hmm: :grin:

Seriously, though, I'm curious about a couple of things. What is the "skin", do ya think? And is there any mention as to how they attached it to the cannelures?

 

[Brian the Brit]

'Skin' could be a general reference to the material from which the cartridge is made or it could be a specific reference to 'skin cartridges' that were available at the time and made from nitrated animal guts or 'skins' as they were known.

I think the latter is more likely.

Some cartridges were tied to the bullet with fine thread and some were glued to it(the tinfoil ones used a form of rubber cement similar to that used in cycle tyre repair kits so as to be waterproof.) I'm not sure how 'skins' were attached.

 

[thecapgunkid]

One of the reasons this is such a good post is because it hits on one of the biggest bugaboos a researcher has....for the most part, if it was taken for granted people tended not to write about it or photograph it. The mundane ends up short of documentation for us even though we want to know.

Judging by the posts here and in other threads, we are relegated to snippets of info about this sort of topic because the guys writing in their journals tended to write only when they thought they had a hot idea.

We are not likely to write a blog about how we open our car doors unless there is the novelty of a keyless entry, for example, and some researcher in the 22nd century ( if we get that far) is going to get paid to, or gain a thesis when he/she, write(s) about ..."procedural entry to the fossil fuel powered vehicles in the pre-modern energy era" ...

Of course, banging around trying to pay my bills I always refer to my Hyundai as a fossil fuel powered vehicle... sort of like those guys in the Civil War worried about being period correct.

ON the other hand, if there actually is a guy who writes about how he uses his keys or loads his revolver then we have the fruitcakes among us who will take the time to dig up the journal, use the word of mouth of an ancestor or peer at a photo to figure out things like I learned by reading all these threads;

The next Cowboy Action Match I take my cap and ball to I will make a point of flipping the revolver when cocking to dump the spent cap. Maybe I'll try a cartridge load instead of lugging around five cylinders on my guncart.

I guess it's the core of the joy we all get when we wonder what the deuce was that guy thinking when he sat there by the firelight trying to organize, clean or load his guns before going into battle or stepping out into the Rockies or spending his last night in a good mental state before mistakenly turning around and blowing away Deputy Williams who was only trying to help his Marshall...

Thanks and keep writing you coyotes

The Capgun Kid
SASS#31398