How Big ya need …to feel Safe?

[andy52]

Here's a short vid in slow-mo of the rifle in action.

 

[Africa58double]

That’s a heck of a Smokepole! I believe you recently acquired that if I’m not mistaken. Seen the video previously…. That’s a behemoth of a rifle. Very cool indeed.
I’m willing to bet- that if used for Elk hunting out to 100 yards AND ran across a Bruin… you would be able to Stop that Animal- If your nerves could be trained well enough to shoot straight.

Your rifle is definitely a good tool to have and what this Thread is about!

Simply put- It’s about Muzzleloader rifle hunting in the areas that Bruins are in.

 

[Africa58double]

Here's a short vid in slow-mo of the rifle in action.
View attachment 118153

^ Very cool

 

[Zapadach]

I hunted black bear with a 58.cal rifle musket loaded with 70 grains of black powder under a 575 Minnie ball with a 44. cal Griswold and Gunnison revolver as a backup. And I felt comfortable for my survival.

 

[andy52]

That’s a heck of a Smokepole! I believe you recently acquired that if I’m not mistaken. Seen the video previously…. That’s a behemoth of a rifle. Very cool indeed.
I’m willing to bet- that if used for Elk hunting out to 100 yards AND ran across a Bruin… you would be able to Stop that Animal- If your nerves could be trained well enough to shoot straight.

Your rifle is definitely a good tool to have and what this Thread is about!

Simply put- It’s about Muzzleloader rifle hunting in the areas that Bruins are in.

Yes, I got the rifle from a member back in Oct. The vid is just me checking the sights because I had just replaced the front and back.
When the weather warms a bit I'll finish sighting it in and take it hog hunting.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Oh I Hear ya. “Go prepared”… And I intend to. I may be Headed to Montana this year. Large population of The Griz up there and it got me thinking, Hence the Thread. Wanted to know what others thought about it.
Yes I’m a revolver guy- Yet since I’m a Advocate for the Black powder… I just can’t be bringing any side arm. So I Just picked up a short 5.5 ROA. I’ll get a 255 Mould for it and develop a stout 777 charge for it. Up close/ I think that’s “Well Healed” with the Double and some heavy charged big conicals.View attachment 117991

When I still had my ROA I found the soft lead roundball more devasting than any of the bullets. Probably the velocity difference.

 

[sportster73hp]

I have always read heavy bullet for caliber is best. The 58 enfield with a mini and maybe a musketoon loaded the same as back up. The only drawback is extra weight. Have not hunted bear county, NW Pa currently has a limited population of them.
I have parts to build a 58 caliber flintlock pistol, that build still needs started.

 

[Mangonboat]

Your .58 is more than enough to hunt black bear, especially in fall when their coats are not as thick. Black bear arent nearly as hard to kill as bull elk.

 

[Africa58double]

Yep- I am aware my rifle is sufficient for black bear, Elk and most likely Grizzly .

What I’m inquiring is what others use.

 

[Africa58double]

Your .58 is more than enough to hunt black bear, especially in fall when their coats are not as thick. Black bear arent nearly as hard to kill as bull elk.

^

 

[Rifleman1776]

When member Brown Bear was still with us this subject came up. He lived in Alaska and knew many hunting guides. He once said, the guides universally agreed "no bleeping way" when asked if any muzzle loaders could be used for Grizzly. The consensus was that a Griz is just too tough to safely consider anything but a modern magnumitis rifle for them.

 

[cornstalk]

Hunting a bear with a muzzle loader and defending against a bear attack with a muzzle loader are two entirely different things. Hunting is a placed shot on an animal that is relaxed. Defense shot is a rushed, non-aimed shot at an animal that is amped up and running at you.

When a bear "attack charges" it will be low to the ground (lower than you can imagine) and going about 35mph. Its head is what will be available as a target and most likely a shot will ricochet off its skull. Assuming you can get a shot off before its on you and assuming you can hit its head.

Reading first person accounts from the early fur trade era there were lots of very aggressive grizzly bears and attacks. None that I recall were killed with one shot. As far as I know the grizzlies that remain in the Lower 48 are not aggressive. I'd be more worried about black bears.

Bear spray? A psychological crutch at best. If the wind is at your back, the bear will smell you and vacate the area before you even know it was there. If the wind is in your face you will likely surprise the bear if you aren't making noise. And where will the bear spray go when you pull the trigger?

We have more bears than people where I live- brown, grizzlies and blacks (and polar bears but they are way up north on the ice).

The blacks are generally the most dangerous. Some will actually hunt people and kill them.
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/art...rs-responsible-most-human-attacks/2011/05/11/
If/when a brown/grizzly attacks they almost always stop the attack when they no longer see you as a threat.

A couple of years ago in a community not far from here a guy was killed and eaten. There was evidence of both brown and black bears. No telling which started the attack. The other just came for the meal. Bear spray didn't help him.
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/applications/webintra/wcnews/2020/releases/08-06-2020b.pdf
The DNA taken from the brown and black bears killed by Fish & Game after the attack did not match any of the DNA taken from the scene.

If a bear is approaching you but not attack charging, stand your ground and make yourself as large as possible and yell and scream at the bear. It will most likely stop short, probably standing up on its hind legs which is not a threat, it's trying to see you better to determine what you are.

If you spot a bear slowly back away, always facing the bear. Never ever run, no matter what. You can't out run it and if you run you WILL trigger an attack. Predators have to chase anything that runs, including one of their own. I have personally witnessed this with brown bear siblings.

If an attack charge is coming, hit the deck face down with your hands behind your neck fingers interlaced and play dead and be completely quiet even if it is tearing away at you. Stay face down and protect your neck. Obviously if it is intent on killing you fight like hell, you've got nothing to lose at this point.

If you are really concerned about bears:

1. If you are intent on keeping this muzzle loader only you'll want a conical solid bullet heavy enough to maintain momentum through inches of hair, inches of fat, inches of muscle and inches of bone in hopes of hitting something vital. You do have a sharp Bowie knife on you yes?

2. OTHERWISE, if two or more of you one should be armed with a .45-70 (Marlin Guide Rifle is what I carry) with solid cast bullets. If just you than either a 10mm Glock semi-auto or something like a .454 Casull revolver (I carry both), again solid cast bullets. And practice, practice, practice. If it goes south you will revert to whatever level of training you have.

3. Bring an inReach along, keep it in a front pocket, so you can summon rescue help. And have at least one CAT tourniquet on the front of your body where either hand can reach it and set it up for one handed operation in case the bear creates a big bleeder.

Good hunting!

 

[Africa58double]

Hunting a bear with a muzzle loader and defending against a bear attack with a muzzle loader are two entirely different things. Hunting is a placed shot on an animal that is relaxed. Defense shot is a rushed, non-aimed shot at an animal that is amped up and running at you.

When a bear "attack charges" it will be low to the ground (lower than you can imagine) and going about 35mph. Its head is what will be available as a target and most likely a shot will ricochet off its skull. Assuming you can get a shot off before its on you and assuming you can hit its head.

Reading first person accounts from the early fur trade era there were lots of very aggressive grizzly bears and attacks. None that I recall were killed with one shot. As far as I know the grizzlies that remain in the Lower 48 are not aggressive. I'd be more worried about black bears.

Bear spray? A psychological crutch at best. If the wind is at your back, the bear will smell you and vacate the area before you even know it was there. If the wind is in your face you will likely surprise the bear if you aren't making noise. And where will the bear spray go when you pull the trigger?

We have more bears than people where I live- brown, grizzlies and blacks (and polar bears but they are way up north on the ice).

The blacks are generally the most dangerous. Some will actually hunt people and kill them.
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/art...rs-responsible-most-human-attacks/2011/05/11/
If/when a brown/grizzly attacks they almost always stop the attack when they no longer see you as a threat.

A couple of years ago in a community not far from here a guy was killed and eaten. There was evidence of both brown and black bears. No telling which started the attack. The other just came for the meal. Bear spray didn't help him.
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/applications/webintra/wcnews/2020/releases/08-06-2020b.pdf
The DNA taken from the brown and black bears killed by Fish & Game after the attack did not match any of the DNA taken from the scene.

If a bear is approaching you but not attack charging, stand your ground and make yourself as large as possible and yell and scream at the bear. It will most likely stop short, probably standing up on its hind legs which is not a threat, it's trying to see you better to determine what you are.

If you spot a bear slowly back away, always facing the bear. Never ever run, no matter what. You can't out run it and if you run you WILL trigger an attack. Predators have to chase anything that runs, including one of their own. I have personally witnessed this with brown bear siblings.

If an attack charge is coming, hit the deck face down with your hands behind your neck fingers interlaced and play dead and be completely quiet even if it is tearing away at you. Stay face down and protect your neck. Obviously if it is intent on killing you fight like hell, you've got nothing to lose at this point.

If you are really concerned about bears:

1. If you are intent on keeping this muzzle loader only you'll want a conical solid bullet heavy enough to maintain momentum through inches of hair, inches of fat, inches of muscle and inches of bone in hopes of hitting something vital. You do have a sharp Bowie knife on you yes?

2. OTHERWISE, if two or more of you one should be armed with a .45-70 (Marlin Guide Rifle is what I carry) with solid cast bullets. If just you than either a 10mm Glock semi-auto or something like a .454 Casull revolver (I carry both), again solid cast bullets. And practice, practice, practice. If it goes south you will revert to whatever level of training you have.

3. Bring an inReach along, keep it in a front pocket, so you can summon rescue help. And have at least one CAT tourniquet on the front of your body where either hand can reach it and set it up for one handed operation in case the bear creates a big bleeder.

Good hunting!

Informative and insightful- Yet the subject is about muzzleloader caliber, Projectile, powder charges used while hunting Elk/ Black Bear in the Area of Large Grizzlies and that are used for a defense. Modern Firearms discussion are not permitted on this site and not helpful in this subject. I will be after Black Bear. I feel my Double .58 with heavy charge and conical is fine at around 1500fps and 445gr of 8Bhn.

I’m interested In what others use.

Thank you tho for your post- a wealth of knowledge on the subject.

 

[Africa58double]

I have read a large amount of his information. He was Very knowledgeable.

When member Brown Bear was still with us this subject came up. He lived in Alaska and knew many hunting guides. He once said, the guides universally agreed "no bleeping way" when asked if any muzzle loaders could be used for Grizzly. The consensus was that a Griz is just too tough to safely consider anything but a modern magnumitis rifle for them.

 

[cynthialee]

the one bear I encountered at too close for comfort (a cinnamon colored black that was so large I thought it was a grizzly in the moment) I started banging a barrel clamp against the house siding and the clanging sent that bear for the hills at full speed

From what I have seen and read most of them are quick to run and avoid conflict like the plague....except that 1 bear....he will eat you.

When I have hunted with muzzle loader and I was worried about mountain lions and black bear I carried a black powder revolver with me. If I was worried about griz.....I will stay home.

 

[Africa58double]

When I have hunted with muzzle loader and I was worried about mountain lions and black bear I carried a black powder revolver with me. If I was worried about griz.....I will stay home.

What details on charges, Muzzleloader rifle , caliber, projectiles…. did you use? Also the revolver details.

 

[cynthialee]

I carry a TC Hawken loaded with a .490 PRB .010 patch and 90 grains of 3F. My 'oh manure I missed shot' and or dispatch shot is loaded with a 275 grain Maxi Hunter and 100 grains of 3f. The difference in load due to it is a lot easier to load the conical for me and time if important in the field. I am competent out to 75 yards with both loads.

My pistol field pistol is a 1851 .44 caliber (may be a fantasy gun but I love this pistol in .44) loaded with .454 roundball, 22 grains of 3f powder and a buffer of cornmeal over the powder.
I know it will kill a mountain lion. Had one missing a front leg with bones showing, and very starved get into my garage. The dogs were trying to get it and the cat was mad with pain and fear. I dispatched the poor cat. Feel bad for having to do it, but it was a mercy the cat was due.

I did carry a CVA Hawken Pistol but it is too bulky and it doesn't have a cool holster like I have for the 1851. Also I think 6 shots beats 1 if I am in a draw a pistol situation.

 

[Africa58double]

Up close- last resort- 20’ I’m sure a cap and ball revolver to the Head would be sufficient to stop something, Hopefully.
I’m looking into a Conical 255 Mould for my Ruger Old Army. It would be about equivalent to a 45 Colt blackpowder load of 850fps. That was stopping charging horses back in the 1800’s. I’d imagine that could help. Better than a sharp stick.

I carry a TC Hawken loaded with a .490 PRB .010 patch and 90 grains of 3F. My 'oh manure I missed shot' and or dispatch shot is loaded with a 275 grain Maxi Hunter and 100 grains of 3f. The difference in load due to it is a lot easier to load the conical for me and time if important in the field. I am competent out to 75 yards with both loads.

My pistol field pistol is a 1851 .44 caliber (may be a fantasy gun but I love this pistol in .44) loaded with .454 roundball, 22 grains of 3f powder and a buffer of cornmeal over the powder.
I know it will kill a mountain lion. Had one missing a front leg with bones showing, and very starved get into my garage. The dogs were trying to get it and the cat was mad with pain and fear. I dispatched the poor cat. Feel bad for having to do it, but it was a mercy the cat was due.

I did carry a CVA Hawken Pistol but it is too bulky and it doesn't have a cool holster like I have for the 1851. Also I think 6 shots beats 1 if I am in a draw a pistol situation.

 

[LME]

A .458 Win. mag. or one of my Westley Richards No 1 express cartridges
is not good enough. I want a partner for back up and I would still be worried.

 

[morehops52]

Just curious what others think about being in a environment with large carnivores. I’m not going to state the name of the animal because I don’t want this thread to become “That Thread”.
If you are hunting normal game, say… Elk and in Montana. What’s your option you would suggest or take for Muzzleloader hunting when large Non friendly mammals are in the same area. That’s rite- Furry , Large and sharp describes the problem.
Try to keep your opinions to genuine answers and not the “Oh you will be fine, take whatever ya want.”

Participation is for Caliber discussion

Would a .45 Long Conical , .50 Real Bullet, .54 Mini or a .58,62,72 Roundball Etc…. Be your choice and please explain why.

Thank you for your Time
Afr58X
View attachment 117978

Feel Safe? Quite frankly, I never feel totally safe in an area where critters consider me dinner. Having only read about griz I wouldn't feel somewhat confident unless I had a triple. A large caliber on top, if ML then 54 maxi on top of 110gr 3F, and a double 12 ga S/S underneath loaded for bear. If one even exists I wouldn't be able to carry it, but it's my answer in armament. Other than that African big game doubles, but I have no idea what BP calibers they used. I wouldn't even consider going into bear country without bear spray strapped to my chest. It's not PC and if I'm breaking a rule here please kindly let me know.