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Africa58double

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Africa58,
I know you have not quite received the information directly related to muzzleloaders you had hoped for. Yet a lot of good info here. I don’t have the impression you are looking for a bear fight. :) I think your on the right path with your double, a hand gun and bear spray seems logical as well.
^
 
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over the last 30 years living in the outback of northern Idaho, i have had a few hairy's with bears. black and brown.
scariest was a Griz sow with two cubs that may have gone 25 pounds each. i had a 454 cal hand gun on my belt and a .458 cal rifle in my hands.
I felt naked. when one encounters something that lives as a bear does, and it out weighs you by 5x you better NOT not be scared.
again it is part of hunting in the wild. carry what will be sufficient to kill your quarry efficiently and get on with it.
or stay home and watch video's.
 

Africa58double

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That is Neat- looks compact with Good amount of powder, Just incase.
This is a ParkerHale musket that a former owner back in the 1970s cut down the barrel to temove bayonette lug, then put in brass tacks to make a c.1880 percission trade gun, except it still has rifling and iron fixed
sights. Shoots both round ball and conical. I cast my own .562 RB, and cadt my own Lee target Minies, which I find more to my liking for hunting as well they have a big flat nose. Have tried paper patching these minies, but after a while saw no real advantage to that. I use Swiss FF, 80 grains for conicals, and up to 100 grains for roundball. Good accuracy with both loads. Also use 60 gr load with rb for normal target load.
 

Africa58double

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Ragged edge- can you use that to shoot a Elk or Black bear at 100 yards…. AND
I just KNEW you were gonna ask....

a close charging dangerous animal is really the need of what I’m discussing.
Please explain the trajectory with what charge load and Projectile you use. Thank you for your time.
 

Africa58double

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I agree it’s a sound choice becouse with 120gr of Swiss 2F and the 8Bhn 445gr R.E.A.L Bullet that shoots very accurate… I can use the Ghost ring for fast up close defense and With further “Hunting shots” I can use the Express sites. I feel that should be equivalent to a 12g Breech loader and out to 100yards would accommodate a Hunting shot and defense shot if need.
A 4 bore wouldn’t be able to reach out to 110 yards, yet would be best for defense. A good balance between the two requirements is what I was thinking.
A58DBL, if i had the choice right at this moment, i would choose your double, and any good load i could shoot well.
i really think as far as muzzleloader hunting in Indian country you are equipped.
 

Daveboone

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I cant recall the source....Maybe Elmer Keith? In the 19th century after the advent of cartridge rifles, the serious sportsman pursuing Grizz and other large critters prefered to have a string of .58 muskets lined up even well after the high performance...for the day...,30 cal. centerfires showed face. No substitute for mass,
 

Africa58double

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I agree- Large Lead is the Go to for this circumstance. I’m not a Advocate for the biggest magnum… Yet when the job requires it, a less caliber Dosnt serve the purpose well.
I cant recall the source....Maybe Elmer Keith? In the 19th century after the advent of cartridge rifles, the serious sportsman pursuing Grizz and other large critters prefered to have a string of .58 muskets lined up even well after the high performance...for the day...,30 cal. centerfires showed face. No substitute for mass,
 
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But once Drouillard figured out how to place the killing shot, he was recording one shot kills in the Journals. Other bear encounters usually required more than one shot. How many did the Corps of Discovery need to kill the first grizzly they encountered? 15? or more?
yup that's about right, one even ran Lewis out into a river all he had was his spontoon to fend it off with.
If I were to encounter a Griz even though I don't want to, my .72 Jeager would be enough to take it down with a well-placed shot.
 

Africa58double

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.72 Jager

Lets see the Rifle please

Also elaborate on the load/charge/projectile you use.

Can you not only defend against a charge of a Bear…. yet the main and top priority of hunting A Black Bear or Elk out to say… 100 yards?

Im unfamiliar with the Trajectory of the .72 and don’t know if it’s a short distance rifle or capable of a distance shot.

Because after all- This is not just a discussion of dangerous game defense shooting. It’s a combination of Hunting rifle with ability to defend.

I think your .72 Jager is serious business and seeking more information about it. Im a Jager fan and looking to build/buy one in future. Was thinking of a .72 or smaller.

Appreciate your time.


yup that's about right, one even ran Lewis out into a river all he had was his spontoon to fend it off with.
If I were to encounter a Griz even though I don't want to, my .72 Jeager would be enough to take it down with a well-placed shot.
 

Arrow139

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That is Neat- looks compact with Good amount of powder, Just incase.
Thanks, I actually prefer the single barrel, as having had a double barrel percussion shotgun I found any interruption to my concentration while reloading was problematic for making 100% sure which barrel I was loading, even when using a cork to force me to only load one at a time. Personal preference here.
 

Africa58double

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Please elaborate on you ability to shoot at say.. 100 yards, trajectory and load of projectile-powder- charge.
That’s what I’m seeking. Info about hunting with the rifle and …. Then as it being used as a defense muzzleloader.
I have a .72 percussion rifle that I would feel comfortable with, regardless of the length of the fangs or claws.
 
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Africa58double

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Cork! I just learned a valuable thought.
I normally have a range rod and the wood original. I use the wood original to place hold the barrel I’m not loading. A cork would be better. Good thinkin
 

Africa58double

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Thanks, I actually prefer the single barrel, as having had a double barrel percussion shotgun I found any interruption to my concentration while reloading was problematic for making 100% sure which barrel I was loading, even when using a cork to force me to only load one at a time. Personal preference here.
^
 

bacarper

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This may not be he most popular take on the subject, but here's my .02 for what it's worth.
Regardless of caliber, gun, etc., etc., it's all about training...Training, training, training, training, and more training.

The caliber and gun you should take is the caliber and gun you're most comfortable with. There's was a good video I saw a while ago (I'll try to pull it if I can find it) where they were arguing the efficiency of .45 vs. 9mm against a bear charge. They mimicked this by trying to shoot/hit a 3 foot workout out ball that was thrown at them (this was achieved by the thrower standing behind the shooter and bouncing the ball of a surface in front of the shooter.) And wouldn't you know it, caliber didn't matter because no one could hit a moving target coming right at them.

If you've ever had the misfortune of drawing a gun in self defense, you'll know just how hard it is to overcome the adrenaline dump your body experiences. The only way to negate these effects and be effective in this kind of situation is practice and comfort with your caliber/gun of choice.

So I'd say pick whatever you feel most comfortable/familiar with and practice drawing down on a moving target a few hundred times.
 

Ragged Edge

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Ragged edge- can you use that to shoot a Elk or Black bear at 100 yards…. AND


a close charging dangerous animal is really the need of what I’m discussing.
Please explain the trajectory with what charge load and Projectile you use. Thank you for your time.
The last time the gun was fired (15 years ago) the target was 1-gallon paint cans filled with water @ 100 yards. The second of the 3-leaf open sight, with front bead carefully held on the can caused a wonderful explosion. 150 grains Swiss 2-FG with the 570-grain LRB. Rather STOUT recoil caused the gun to be retired. My retinas will no longer take it.
 

Africa58double

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I appreciate the post- yet Modern handgun references are not helpful or allowed under the rules of the Site.
I do understand your point- however the OP was regarding a Muzzleloader hunting rifle Caliber, projectile,charge that you feel is Best suited to a Elk hunting rifle for distance AND also something that can defend against a charging dangerous animal. I don’t believe a .40 caliber muzzleloader would be a good choice.
Thank you for your post.
This may not be he most popular take on the subject, but here's my .02 for what it's worth.
Regardless of caliber, gun, etc., etc., it's all about training...Training, training, training, training, and more training.

The caliber and gun you should take is the caliber and gun you're most comfortable with. There's was a good video I saw a while ago (I'll try to pull it if I can find it) where they were arguing the efficiency of .45 vs. 9mm against a bear charge. They mimicked this by trying to shoot/hit a 3 foot workout out ball that was thrown at them (this was achieved by the thrower standing behind the shooter and bouncing the ball of a surface in front of the shooter.) And wouldn't you know it, caliber didn't matter because no one could hit a moving target coming right at them.

If you've ever had the misfortune of drawing a gun in self defense, you'll know just how hard it is to overcome the adrenaline dump your body experiences. The only way to negate these effects and be effective in this kind of situation is practice and comfort with your caliber/gun of choice.

So I'd say pick whatever you feel most comfortable/familiar with and practice drawing down on a moving target a few hundred times.
 

Africa58double

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That Sir is Awesome.

The last time the gun was fired (15 years ago) the target was 1-gallon paint cans filled with water @ 100 yards. The second of the 3-leaf open sight, with front bead carefully held on the can caused a wonderful explosion. 150 grains Swiss 2-FG with the 570-grain LRB. Rather STOUT recoil caused the gun to be retired. My retinas will no longer take it.
 

bacarper

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I appreciate the post- yet Modern handgun references are not helpful or allowed under the rules of the Site.
I do understand your point- however the OP was regarding a Muzzleloader hunting rifle Caliber, projectile,charge that you feel is Best suited to a Elk hunting rifle for distance AND also something that can defend against a charging dangerous animal. I don’t believe a .40 caliber muzzleloader would be a good choice.
Thank you for your post.
Sorry about that - But references to the modern firearms aside, all I'm saying is take a few steps back from the question and understand that the best caliber, projectile, charge, etc. in the world isn't going to mean much unless you're practiced and confident in that kind of situation.

I knew it wouldn't be the most popular opinion, so I'll go back to lurking haha
 
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.72 Jager

Lets see the Rifle please

Also elaborate on the load/charge/projectile you use.

Can you not only defend against a charge of a Bear…. yet the main and top priority of hunting A Black Bear or Elk out to say… 100 yards?

Im unfamiliar with the Trajectory of the .72 and don’t know if it’s a short distance rifle or capable of a distance shot.

Because after all- This is not just a discussion of dangerous game defense shooting. It’s a combination of Hunting rifle with ability to defend.

I think your .72 Jager is serious business and seeking more information about it. Im a Jager fan and looking to build/buy one in future. Was thinking of a .72 or smaller.

Appreciate your time.

It's a lot of gun I can assure you. I max the gun out with 150grs 2F, .710 round ball at 535grs and a .15 pillow ticking patch. I also use a fiber wad on top of the powder just keep the powder from burning up the patch.
It is capable of shooting 4in groups at 100 yds off the bench and much tighter groups at closer ranges. If you coild maintain your nerve and stay on target you could put the ball in a Grizzlies skull at 25 yds.
Here's a few photos of the rifle I just took, please ignore my messy shop... ;)
 

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