Holland and Holland Identification

[FlinterNick]

Please tell me you aren't serious...
Please, please just be a case of our lack of an "I'm joking" emoji....

Nope never heard. It before. I’ve had a few friends from Finland, they never regarded themselves as such. In fact they called themselves Suomis. Apologies if I’ve offended anyone.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Seems I started the haggis string it’s more of interest than this H&H flintlock. Since the Italians took over H&H and moved it seems head office to Dallas closing London office God only knows what’s going on. I doubt if the London factory would make the said flintlocks the cost and their pride is astronomical It seems the Dallas mob got them made up from stock repro Bess guns from Italy or from what I can see india. With a bit of spit and polish to embellish their exhibition line. They are far to tatty to be called H&H but the British ain’t running it now . I guess it fine to embellish an exhibition hall but it’s just not cricket. It just ain’t an H&H Loads of argument for their praise , and unpleasant ness if you disagree. My brother has an H&H and it seems my 450-400 is a Purdey. Quality !!!! Yes we know what quality is. I have 2 1812 Bess locks and a very crappy Indian made one to study and compare. Dave doesn’t know more than me as he doesn’t know what I know , I have handled plenty of Bess guns at Holts to know the real thing. I can only put my arguments to you with data on the subject the final conclusions don’t bother me. Chose whatever makes you happy. Some of H&H guns below real quality. But at say $300,000 a piece

who would ever want this crappy flint lock I just don’t know. Just buy the real thing

I conclude would H&H London make tatty Bess flintlocks NO! They would supply the genuine article. But this is London not the USA or Disney land

I wish you well

 

[lexington1]

These were put out by H&H during the Bicentennial. The barrels are top notch. The brass furniture is great. The rest, eh, not so much. If you peruse ads from the Bicentennial era you will find these advertised by H&H.

 

[Nameless Hunter]

What a mucked up thread. I feel for visitors coming on this forum and asking for help. On the plus side, I added a new member to my ignore list...

 

[lexington1]

Henry Krank sells them. God knows why. Probably a good profit. Seems for re -enactors Whatever makes them happy whom am I to comment. They are probably vegetarians too better buy from Parkestan they make real guns there 🥲🥲🥲🥲

Not the same gun or lock that you showed us.

 

[lexington1]

If it was made by H&H it would have London proof marks on the barrel .As an aside Holland and Holland are now owned by Beretta .

They do have London proofs on the bottom side of the barrel.

 

[lexington1]

If anyone has any real interest in these, instead of fighting, here are a couple more pics of the one I had. In my opinion, although they are not ordnance copies, they could be passed off as a commercial example. As I stated before, the locks are crap and I ended up completely reworking mine. The wood to metal fit is really good. They are much better quality than the Pedersolis and Japanese Besses, and forget about the Indian made stuff. If I got a good deal on one I would probably buy another one. When I had mine I did contact H&H and the fellow did confirm that they were made up for Abercrobie and Fitch, and also could be ordered directly from them.

 

[lexington1]

What a mucked up thread. I feel for visitors coming on this forum and asking for help. On the plus side, I added a new member to my ignore list...

Me too!

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Very nice photos , very nice looking gun , not looking like made in India. Pity screw slot out of line But not H&H standard it’s been an interesting debate thanks

 

[Gordoncourtney]

If anyone has any real interest in these, instead of fighting, here are a couple more pics of the one I had. In my opinion, although they are not ordnance copies, they could be passed off as a commercial example. As I stated before, the locks are crap and I ended up completely reworking mine. The wood to metal fit is really good. They are much better quality than the Pedersolis and Japanese Besses, and forget about the Indian made stuff. If I got a good deal on one I would probably buy another one. When I had mine I did contact H&H and the fellow did confirm that they were made up for Abercrobie and Fitch, and also could be ordered directly from them. View attachment 117708View attachment 117709View attachment 117710

I cannot argue in many ways it looks nice, difficult decision, I guess if the locks crappy it could be replaced with an original £240 / $600 Impossible to comment from photos though I wonder who actually made them certainly not the work of London factory I wish you well

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Comments from a British experts I sent them photos

They can't get away from the fact that H&H were makers of top quality "best" guns. They wouldn't have risked their reputation by putting their name on anything of an inferior standard, no matter what the profit margin would have been. They had always bought in parts, and even entire guns, but then worked on them to bring them up to H&H standards.


Unless H&H were on the verge of bankruptcy in 1976 they wouldn't have put their name on these. If they did, for God knows what reason, the entries will be in their ledger.

I wish you well

 

[FlinterNick]

Comments from a British experts I sent them photos

They can't get away from the fact that H&H were makers of top quality "best" guns. They wouldn't have risked their reputation by putting their name on anything of an inferior standard, no matter what the profit margin would have been. They had always bought in parts, and even entire guns, but then worked on them to bring them up to H&H standards.


Unless H&H were on the verge of bankruptcy in 1976 they wouldn't have put their name on these. If they did, for God knows what reason, the entries will be in their ledger.

I wish you well

I’m not sure what the point of this reference is. I don’t see many here attacking H&H’s quality as a top notch gunmaker. There were a lot or reputable companies engaged in the bicentennial reproduction market, there was money to be made but even some of the best producers of reproduction and modern guns…..”Get it wrong”, as I feel H&H did here. Its a good thing they only made a limited run of these. The H&H Bess is a poorly generated reproduction in terms of authenticity as it truly does not fit any long land pattern of the era, more work needs to be done to this gun to make it historically accurate. As for the quality, I don’t doubt the quality of the barrel, almost every barrel I’ve ever seen produced in england is top notch but marked incorrectly. The stock from a distance looks like an average cut of walnut, its shape shows characteristics of a 1730 era long land in the butt, however nothing else really matches to an specific era, even the “so called” pattern 1748 long land Brown Bess, which is the musket I think its intended to be, (procured in very small numbers) has some significant differences from this musket, notably the lock, thimbles…. Now I don’t consider myself a self proclaimed bess expert, just a guy with a hobby that has learned some things over the years.

To drop 6k on the table for this musket is a mistake and a crime by the person who priced it, the money would have been better saved than spent on this musket.

 

[TFoley]

My local gun store has a two-band Enfield rifle in .577cal, clearly and beautifully engraved with the name of Westley-Richards. It has other fine embellishments all over the lock, tang, barrel and muzzle - the wood is beautiful to behold and appears to be real walnut. It has never been fired, by its appearance. I posted images of the very odd-looking trade or proof mark here and on a number of other sites, and got nowhere. I wrote Westley-Richards and got the same negative response.

It is a really very fine-looking piece, even at £750, but its extreme 'oddness' makes it questionable as a purchase, given the odd UK laws. As a replica it is subject to the same Firearms Act strictures as it it was any modern bolt-action firearm.

I'll make a new thread if I can find the images I took - but, TBH, I was pretty much disheartened by the total lack of response, and may have canned them.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Replica guns are almost given away at Holts London auction in the £100 to £300 price bracket Yes some lovely top quality unused guns , Love to bid on them but as you say they are police S1 if rifled and S2 smooth bore. And once bought have no utter value und police controlled. The only time I did well was my repro .36 ML double rifle made 1885 as holts put it but cost me £2150 I think it’s actually 1920s. But beautiful well made , had to have it

Best live in France no licence no police on BP guns old or repro. I am at 78 too old up live there other than my Motorhome

If you want a Brown Bess buy a real one usually under £1500 but don’t buy from a dealer All my old guns are far better quality than these discussion H&H things , It’s just I cannot stand the thought of somebody buying one for $5000 thinking they have a Holland and Holland masterpiece. Such is life the buyer beware.

Digressing

My 450-400 was made for a Lyon and Lyon customer it’s beautiful top of the range. Marked “ late of Purdey “. But it could have been made by greener as it has a cross bolt or by Osborne Birmingham but it’s London proofed the case is marked “Manton
Who took over Lyon and Lyon in 1926 but I might be just an odd case and trade label but the gun fits perfectly the proof is 1906 up to today so that does not help. It’s brother with the next serial no is in Oz but the dealer never replied to my emails. There was another .470 but identical signed Manton. So you can see tracking down who made it is near impossible I bought it at Bonhams for £5200. The two above were. $18,000. so I am still non the wiser who made it. If it really was Purdey it would be £80,000. Perhaps I am a lucky boy

 

[Gordoncourtney]

They are pretty far outside American eating habits. Not the worst thing I've ever eaten, certainly not something I'd seek out again.

My son In Japan was taken to a very expensive. Fish restaurant The dish “ fish bladders” he don’t like fish at the best of times. Having said that dont think he’s tried Haggis as he’s mainly vegetarian Still in the shops £24 for a bloody great one size of a football

 

[lexington1]

This lock is identical to an older pedersoli bess from the 1970’s, other than the frizzen spring. Everything is the same, I have some doubts its an Indian made lock or maybe the casted copies of the pedersoli lock.

The lock is not even close. My first thought when I thought about using Pedo parts was to use them in this, but the Pedo lock parts don't fit this or any original Bess. The lock shape on the H&H is way off also. The only way I could find to rebuild the H&H lock was to strip everything off of the plate and totally refit Rifle Shoppe parts.

 

[FlinterNick]

The lock is not even close. My first thought when I thought about using Pedo parts was to use them in this, but the Pedo lock parts don't fit this or any original Bess. The lock shape on the H&H is way off also. The only way I could find to rebuild the H&H lock was to strip everything off of the plate and totally refit Rifle Shoppe parts.

Not the H&H lock, the grimly looking lock in the picture.

 

[lexington1]

Sorry, my mistake.

 

[Rudyard]

Comments from a British experts I sent them photos

They can't get away from the fact that H&H were makers of top quality "best" guns. They wouldn't have risked their reputation by putting their name on anything of an inferior standard, no matter what the profit margin would have been. They had always bought in parts, and even entire guns, but then worked on them to bring them up to H&H standards.


Unless H&H were on the verge of bankruptcy in 1976 they wouldn't have put their name on these. If they did, for God knows what reason, the entries will be in their ledger.

I wish you well

" And on and on on the tide of his elequence he flowed ". a line from Graham Barrys' Toad of Toad hole' from his ' Wind in the willows' But I think Mr Toad had more credibility than loony tunes Mr Courteney.
Yet once again on & on on the tide of his questionable elequence he flows still effending all who disagree .That he knows nothing & nearly getting the OP thinking he had some Indian fake ? When it was the real Mckoy & had he the vendor not contacted the makers ' Mr Know it all would have effectivley deprived its owner of whatever price it goes for .It was not made for any such as ourselves but as some memorabilia market offering . & now he insults the Makers .. If he is sane,I know where there are house fulls( or did, I think many are closed down now.) He declares He' didn't give a damn' ( He omits the "Frankly Scarlett") .Well I Did 'Give a damn' I stood up for the greatly offended Mr Boots on principal I don't regret that & what Zonie would have made of this affair I wonder . Dave for all his skills & knowledge appears to have only fixed on what it Should be rather missing the point of it probably had never been intended to be a prescise pattern . But ide have to agree with his post. Rudyard

 

[Gordoncourtney]

" And on and on on the tide of his elequence he flowed ". a line from Graham Barrys' Toad of Toad hole' from his ' Wind in the willows' But I think Mr Toad had more credibility than loony tunes Mr Courteney.
Yet once again on & on on the tide of his questionable elequence he flows still effending all who disagree .That he knows nothing & nearly getting the OP thinking he had some Indian fake ? When it was the real Mckoy & had he the vendor not contacted the makers ' Mr Know it all would have effectivley deprived its owner of whatever price it goes for .It was not made for any such as ourselves but as some memorabilia market offering . & now he insults the Makers .. If he is sane,I know where there are house fulls( or did, I think many are closed down now.) He declares He' didn't give a damn' ( He omits the "Frankly Scarlett") .Well I Did 'Give a damn' I stood up for the greatly offended Mr Boots on principal I don't regret that & what Zonie would have made of this affair I wonder . Dave for all his skills & knowledge appears to have only fixed on what it Should be rather missing the point of it probably had never been intended to be a prescise pattern . But ide have to agree with his post. Rudyard

You do blab on Rudyard but it’s a free country just stick to the topic or it shows how little you actually know. I still don’t believe the story of the little old lady. Let the people decide. This repro is just not the work of H&H but Disneyland maybe !!!!!!

We’ll whom am I you might ask. Well I am descended from Courtenay 1140 SE of France now a fit 78 year old. I live in a modest £1.6m house 15 miles outside London , 20 mins on the train? in a little country village I have hunted and lived in Africa and Oz WA plus the uk. Got a few guns on the wall rest in the strong room got 2 Bess we’ll kind of , new wood stocks

As you can see I have a Holts card and I advise and bid on guns for overseas customers sorry I covered up my details

O shoot BSA Scorpio pcp air guns at 70yards on my garden range to keep my hand in , over morning coffee Got woodland across the road full of deer you cannot shoot.

Spend much time in our old 2001 Rapido charging around France. Ferry just reopened topic hunt the hog. Ha ha My 50 ft ocean class catamaran has been neglected as I am in the middle of chemo to give me another 20 odd years. If I was 90 I would not have bothered

So there we are. I don’t know why I bother with this string yes full of a couple of aseholes but other than that I have met so many lovely people on this forum from across the pond and elsewhere in the world. Is a lovely magic forum, I thank you all