Holland and Holland Identification

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Rudyard

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If you can prove to me that this appalling piece of tat was made by Holland & Holland, then I will eat my keyboard, in public, with a sauce of your choice.

It is not known when Harris Holland started his own manufacturing, but it is estimated to be in the 1850s - by that time the British military had long parted ways with the flintlock musket, and were at the beginning of adopting the Pattern 53 rifled musket made in Royal small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock in North London.

Furthermore, if you can find any proof that they made a flintlock musket for the common soldier, the promise I made on line 1 will equally apply.
Dear Mr Foley The musket wasn't touted as original & we know Hollands didn.t produce flintlocks originaly this was and is confirmed a modern one off promotion / Celibration gun . I stood for fair play the gun isn't appauling Tat so you must recourse in all decency to eat your hat. Regards Rudyard
 

Rudyard

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This lock is identical to an older pedersoli bess from the 1970’s, other than the frizzen spring. Everything is the same, I have some doubts its an Indian made lock or maybe the casted copies of the pedersoli lock.
Mr Courteney said a lot of things well punctuated with rude remarks . I stand by my stance for fair play & Mr ignorant Courteny go hang. . You I would have thought would know better .
Regards Rudyard
 

Rudyard

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Rudyard By the words you have placed before us you have destroyed any reputation you may or may not of had. I have had one of theses almost identical guns , you have put nothing forward in words , description of photos of its Part or parts to support this H&H is genuine I have tried to provide clues suggestions by descriptions and photos so other members can decide on its providence Two things are in this string the reputation of Boots and his shop and secondly the providence of the gun

There is nothing wrong with the gun or it’s makers it’s just a fair copy for those who cannot afford the real thing. The crime is selling it as an original and now with fraudulent providence I read Boots wants the providence from us that it is the genuine article and I guess he won’t get it

I received an email about your reputation

“Either a very thin skin or he's trying a provoke a reaction that he can then quote to cause trouble.”

You have nothing to put forward, you are angry , so you result in trying to destroy another member? shall we say by nastiness probably due to poor education and your upbringing.


. Note Gordon Courtney is my handle as I liked the Scottish French connection. Quite Frankly Rudyard as to your comments “ I really do not give a dam”.
My Dear Mr Courtney My credability isnt ( other by you ) in question . You where rude ignorant and wouldnt get off your miopic tirade . You have not the good grace to conceed you where in error . and rather turn your silliness against me. I do know what ime looking at there where photos enough. I stood for fair play not charector assinaition Poor education & questionable upbringing ? .Yes there does seem to be a bit of that floating about .. What you know you will soon forget which is fine but please don't be rude about it .
Rudyard
 
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Aside of authenticity terms the Quality is fine whatever the musket is or lacks its right as nine pence & I said so .Since a Petersoli is up there I cant see a Holland limited run isn't worth more than most , Good Rabbit makes a good point not haveing examined one I cant further comment but Hollands are a proper firm I would be supprized if the function isn't good even it the piece was only meant to appeal to patriotic Americans & not museums or dedicated to authenticity persons Like Dave interprets so well for.
Rudyard
If H&H Made anything, I’m sure it was likely the barrel, H&H was known as a high quality shotgun barrel maker.

I asked a friend of mine who owns one about the lock, he said the lock was made with casted parts in England from a supplier in England. Maybe Dyson or Blackly.

The plate is most certainly styled after a 1728 era long land with the larger pan and no bridal. What’s confusing about the lock is the cock, it looks like somehow a second or third model cock was used.

This reminds me of a Belgium Brown Bess that was made in the 1970’s and sold by an American company in New York State.
 

Rudyard

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If H&H Made anything, I’m sure it was likely the barrel, H&H was known as a high quality shotgun barrel maker.

I asked a friend of mine who owns one about the lock, he said the lock was made with casted parts in England from a supplier in England. Maybe Dyson or Blackly.
Dear Flinter Nick How ever Holland sourced thier parts was thier concern. But the A&F order put out by Hollands was genuine. Historically & today gun makers did & do out source parts . How I You or the bidder will see it time will tell. Be it good or bad by our notion its just our view the bidders will see it thier way . Point is the vendor & Mr Boots have been perfectly correct with no notion of trying to defraud buyers . & did not deserve the unpardonable abuse they suffered from our forum members. who now attack me & my reputation for my stand for fair play.
Regards Rudyard
 
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Dear Flinter Nick How ever Holland sourced thier parts was thier concern. But the A&F order put out by Hollands was genuine. Historically & today gun makers did & do out source parts . How I You or the bidder will see it time will tell. Be it good or bad by our notion its just our view the bidders will see it thier way . Point is the vendor & Mr Boots have been perfectly correct with no notion of trying to defraud buyers . & did not deserve the unpardonable abuse they suffered from our forum members. who now attack me & my reputation for my stand for fair play.
Regards Rudyard
So the fuss was as to whether it was a copy of a holland bess ?

The only thing I find odd about the listing in gunbroker is its price, its way overpriced, but hey….not hte first time I’ve seen it happen. I’ve seen Lyman Bess’s sell for 3k.
 

TFoley

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Dear Mr Foley The musket wasn't touted as original & we know Hollands didn.t produce flintlocks originaly this was and is confirmed a modern one off promotion / Celibration gun . I stood for fair play the gun isn't appauling Tat so you must recourse in all decency to eat your hat. Regards Rudyard
Hat duly eaten, Sir. With a large helping of crow pie, too.

However, I will iterate my post back a page or two - #76 - in which a journalist visited the H&H gun room and saw, as he wrote and I quoted [hence my ottment of hat/humble and or crow pie and keyboard] that 'My favorite of the night was one of 10 replicas of the English Brown Bess. This musket was standard issue to the British soldier during the American Revolution or, what H&H might call, "The American War for Independence."



So H&H DID make likely make ten of these guns, not being famous for showing the products of OTHER gunmakers in their showrooms, and the original poster was NOT trying to pull the wool over our collective eyeballs.
 
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Rudyard

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So the fuss was as to whether it was a copy of a holland bess ?

The only thing I find odd about the listing in gunbroker is its price, its way overpriced, but hey….not hte first time I’ve seen it happen. I’ve seen Lyman Bess’s sell for 3k.
The fuss was about dirideing the Op as if he was a crook from the giddy go and too few thought it out & climbed on an unwarrented band waggon his photo didn't remotely resemble some Indian knock off . Any way the matter was resolved despite some kicking & screaming from one party . It wasn't a copy of a Holland Bess it was just a promotional thing produced in modern times for A & F by Hollands We might not think its much of a musket. But we in general where not the intended market and there was no call to offend the Op or me for that matter.
Regards Rudyard
 

Rudyard

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All I know is that I am confused about my confusion, an alien feeling for sure. Its' close enough to five, I'l have a beer and contemplate my navel.
Robby Pederholland-Bin-Gandhi
Gandhi was a Stretcher Bearer in the 2nd Boer War .I don't think he made any muskets . But ime sure he had a naval & might have studied it over a tot of Arack ..(Indian brandy of sorts )
Regards Rudyard
 
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Hi,
Maurice and Gordon, please stop the bickering. It serves no purpose. Both of you had your say and nothing you write further will advance your view points. Nothing. You are just destroying your credibility. I greatly respect Rudyard's opinions because he knows what he is writing about. Courtney, you are a new entity and I am sure you have good information to share but your tendency to disparage others renders you obtuse and disagreeable. You may think strong opinions expressed with sarcasm and acrimony are some kind of magic power but they render you as an obstinate bore.

dave
 
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I’ll support that theory. Not even a bit of fun. But remember the “buyer beware”
Let’s get back to real work, cold & overcast in uk.
Going hunting my pal from Scotland going to play the bagpipes and hopes to kill a Haggis tonight , last year he stabbed one thrice with his big knife , definitely a dead haggis, disgusting animal to eat though ,
I had haggis once, never tasted anything like that before but Im sure I stepped in it once or twice…
 
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what H&H might call, "The American War for Independence."
More Likely the American Rebellion , or the American Revolution .
I had haggis once, never tasted anything like that before but Im sure I stepped in it once or twice…
Haggis , like all foods , depends very much on the cook . I like correctly made and properly cooked haggis . It is part of the philosophy of nose to tail eating of an animal , Brains , blood, cheeks , neck chops , liver , kidneys , sausage skins out of the intestines , testicles , tail , skin , feet , trotters , bones etc .
all good nourishing food and all honoring the animal who gave its life for you , albeit however unwilling it was .
 

FishDFly

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Nope.

Brains , blood, cheeks , neck chops , liver , kidneys , sausage skins out of the intestines , testicles , tail , skin , feet , trotters , bones etc .
all good nourishing food and all honoring the animal who gave its life for you , albeit however unwilling

Hello Sonic, make that a double meat with fries.
 
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HAGGIS
  • 1 ox lung
  • 1.4kg lamb's pluck, (heart, lungs and liver)
  • 500g of beef, or lamb trimmings or stewing steak
  • 200g of suet
  • 500g of oatmeal, (coarse)
SEASONING (ADJUST TO TASTE)
Place in a pan of cold water , bring to the boil and simmer for 1½-2 hours .
 
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Interesting discussion, I was really hoping to see if anyone had close ups of the H&H Lock and internals.
 
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Ragged Edge

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