Historicly correct

[Crewdawg445]

1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)

The way I have interpreted the #1 forum rule is rather simple, If it's modern in nature it's not traditional nor can it be. So before someone jumps on the "your barrel isn't iron" or "your clothing is made from modern linens" bandwagon please politely step off... Seriously... Don't be ridiculous, it indeed is rather obvious we live in a modern world and a modern society. Traditional definition to me is someone who participates in the hobby by very closely adhering to period documentation and closely following such writings and techniques of the time period of interest AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE. So according to the #1 rule, again this is a traditional forum, yet people always get up in arms when anyone asks for period documentation or points out something isn't correct. IMO that is not hating, being rude, attacking, bewildering or the like. Maybe the delivery is misunderstood by the reader and it escalates from there which is not a issue on behalf of the sender. In short my preception is modern lubes, trinkets and gadgets that frequently filter through the fourm are not traditional to 1865. Maybe I am interpreting things all wrong, if so I'll stand corrected, certainly won't be offended.

 

[Carbon 6]

Yet those who are into HC seem to feel it's OK to tell non-HC people how to do it. To press their choices on others, Outside the reeacting forum. A cursory glance above regarding lubricants will show this.

I don't see it that way at all. Since the focus of the forum seems to be "Keeping Tradition Alive", I think they are simply educating people when something is incorrect, and I am glad when they do, even if it is something I don't choose to adhere to. The benefit is not limited to a single person, whereas you may not like it, the next guy reading the post may find the information extremely valuable.

As an aside;
We have seen what happens when H/C P/C is ignored. It led to the industry making guns that were increasingly historically incorrect and that grew into the modern muzzleloader. As a result it had a negative impact on manufacturers for decades. The same thing happened to Rendezvous and reenacting, and participation declined. No one has to be 100% H/C P/C correct. But, what are you if you are 0% correct?

 

[Crewdawg445]

I don't see it that way at all. Since the focus of the forum seems to be "Keeping Tradition Alive", I think they are simply educating people when something is incorrect, and I am glad when they do, even if it is something I don't choose to adhere to. The benefit is not limited to a single person, whereas you may not like it, the next guy reading the post may find the information extremely valuable.

As an aside;
We have seen what happens when H/C P/C is ignored. It led to the industry making guns that were increasingly historically incorrect and that grew into the modern muzzleloader. As a result it had a negative impact on manufacturers for decades. The same thing happened to Rendezvous and reenacting, and participation declined. No one has to be 100% H/C P/C correct. But, what are you if you are 0% correct?

Well said, fine wording!

 

[George]

To the board...

Pointing out whether something is HC/PC is hardly forcing people to do it that way. I doubt there is a single person interested in the historical side who really cares what anyone who isn't interested does. I certainly don't. I do it all ways. Many times I'm reenacting, and I try hard to do it the old way, as completely as I know how. No underwear. Other times I just go out shooting, totally BP, but HC/PC not involved, and I do it however I want, in modern clothes, camo, etc. Most of my hunting is done in modern clothes, using loading blocks and short starters, with a gun, bag and powder horn which don't match and don't all fit into any particular time period, loads with no historical connection, etc.

Since I do it all ways, most of the time not in "persona", why would I care that anyone else does it that way? The claim makes no sense.

I'd guess a very large percentage of this so-called abuse, harassment, pressure, whatever, is something conjured up in the mind of the one raising the complaint, and it's a total misinterpretation of what happened. It's possible it never happened, that it was a false perception.

I've heard many a claim of abuse over the last thirty-five years, but have never seen it happen so that I recognized it. This thread triggered by such a claim by Old Wyatt is a good example. Four pages of haranguing, division, claims pro and con and hurt feelings, but not a single person here has any idea whether there is any truth to the claim.

I said it before, I'll say it again. Show me.

Spence

 

[TexiKan]

It’s deja-vous all over again. When I first joined, PC was a hot topic. I jumped in the discussion and I remember the discussion became heated. Back then, I questioned the “stitch counters” authority and made comparisons. I continue to contend those who disagree tend to do so in an all knowing and threatening tone. Some cannot do so in a civil manner or refrain when not asked.

 

[Carbon 6]

I continue to contend those who disagree tend to do so in an all knowing and threatening tone. Some cannot do so in a civil manner or refrain when not asked.

Your own "tone" can be perceived in the same manner as you describe.
Just sayin.

 

[George]

It’s deja-vous all over again. When I first joined, PC was a hot topic.

This discussion has been going on since 1990 or before, that I personally know of. It will never stop.

Spence

 

[Robby]

And so it goes.

Robby

 

[Black Hand]

Yet those who are into HC seem to feel it's OK to tell non-HC people how to do it. To press their choices on others, Outside the reeacting forum. A cursory glance above regarding lubricants will show this.

No - no one is telling anyone how to do anything - we are making observations based upon the situation and sharing the knowledge we have. Face it, this is an internet forum - no one can force you to do anything. So please stop with these sort of statements as they are patently untrue, ridiculous and smack of playing the victim...

 

[hanshi]

There is always plenty of room on this forum for any aficionado of BP sidelock guns. Many don't reenact; I don't reenact. My foray into BP is to hunt with and shoot with 18th century technology and make as many of the necessary accoutrements myself as possible. Others go deeper, some not so deep. Let's be nice to one another.

 

[Black Hand]

I continue to contend those who disagree tend to do so in an all knowing and threatening tone. Some cannot do so in a civil manner or refrain when not asked.

This is more perception on your part that reality. No one likes to be told that the bauble they bought from a vendor isn't remotely correct for the period or even history. It makes them angry that they were sold a bill of goods and HOW DARE someone expose their mistake.

I have yet to see an insult leveled by one of the PC/HC crowd but have received plenty from the non-PC/HC crowd. We try our hardest to direct new people down the road to success rather than setting them up for failure, which is exactly what happens if they aren't told the facts...

 

[longcruise]

Maybe HC actually should stand for Hollywood Correct.

Well, reading this topic, maybe a better term is "hysterically correct".

Yet those who are into HC seem to feel it's OK to tell non-HC people how to do it.

Goes on all the time. Wonder how many new members have fled after being bashed with bags of round balls after posing a conical question?


Anyway, the OP undoubtedly gets huge pleasure watching the cannibalism.

 

[Gene L]

No - no one is telling anyone how to do anything - we are making observations based upon the situation and sharing the knowledge we have. Face it, this is an internet forum - no one can force you to do anything. So please stop with these sort of statements as they are patently untrue, ridiculous and smack of playing the victim...

Speaking of straw men! There are plenty of attempts to show the "accepted" way, even on unrelated threads, like this one and the moly thread. Of course no one can FORCE anybody to do anything. I just wish they would stop trying and reply to questions without giving "observations." Unless asked for opinions, of course

 

[Grumpa]

I posted on the Firearms Identification section, and my post sent me right back to here...

To all you "stitchcounters" - and I use that word in a most positive sense - all of you who do the research, who have (or develop) the skills to make/assemble your own firearms, horns, knives, clothing, everything involved in this pursuit, and come up with an article that is superior in quality and authenticity to what is available "factory made", you to whom the pride of your work and the pride of your worth are as one, who have an eye for the beauty and functionality of architecture, and a patience of mind to work quietly to achieve your aim...To You I say: "Thank You."

Without You, there would be no Traditional Muzzleloading Forum...there would be no Traditional muzzleloading as we know it today, on any meaningful scale. We who dabble - however deeply- in the pursuit, owe You a debt that we can never repay, for You keep the traditions alive, with as much authenticity as is achievable. There is workmanship seen on this Forum, that can hold its own with the original period items...trekkers who have recreated historic treks in all but the bloodshed...members who could sit down at a wilderness campfire and be welcomed among 18th Century French voyageurs or Colonial Rangers or Longhunters. If I met some of you in the woods, it would be a moment of enchantment...a fleeting glimpse of another time.

I am most proud to belong to this Forum, to be among so many of you who have led me along the path and gave me the benefit of your skill and experience. I try to be helpful to others here in return. Angry? I rarely even get annoyed here. New members, who seem a bit glib, or unaware of the Traditional nature of this Forum (but they did join!) I try to nudge them toward the more traditional ways. They learn.

No one on this Forum ever personally offended me ; if I have done so to another, I assure you it was without intent.

I am currently down with Shingles on my left face, and Thrush in my mouth. Not much pain, modern meds can be amazing (on anti-viral, anti-bacterial, and anti-fungal). Forty years ago, it was much worse. Yesterday I was able to spend much of it on The Forum...it was a most enjoyable day.

I have rambled on enough. Again, to All, "Thank You."

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Black Hand]

Speaking of straw men! There are plenty of attempts to show the "accepted" way, even on unrelated threads, like this one and the moly thread. Of course no one can FORCE anybody to do anything. I just wish they would stop trying and reply to questions without giving "observations." Unless asked for opinions, of course

Share ALL relevant information. It's not up to us to decide what may or may not be important to the poster or someone else. As I mentioned - if you don't like it, don't read the responses. Being offended because YOU think someone else's question was answered "incorrectly" is absurd. How do YOU (Gene or anyone else with their knickers in a twist) know what is useful or not from another's perspective...? Teach me, O great and wise mind-readers.

Frankly, opinions are relatively useless because they may not be factual or correct. I like Sour-patch Kids and someone thinks Chocolate M&M's are better. I like a red undertone to my maple gunstocks and someone else prefers the orange-y color. Who is correct? Neither, because they are opinions...not facts. Shall I continue.....?

 

[Coot]

As has already been pointed out, a simple statement of fact, that the historical record does or does not support a given item or practice, is not forcing anyone to do anything nor is it making a personal attack. Everyone is free to do as they please. For those who do have an interest in history, such information is instructive. For those who are interested or might become interested in reenacting, these observations can save a bunch of money spent on gear that will have to be replaced. For those who could care less, they are free to ignore such input just as we can choose to ignore another's input re cleaning, patches or a zillion other things.

 

[Gene L]

"Share ALL relevant information. It's not up to us to decide what may or may not be important to the poster or someone else. As I mentioned - if you don't like it, don't read the responses. Being offended because YOU think someone else's question was answered incorrectly is absurd. How do YOU (Gene or anyone else with their knickers in a twist) know what is useful or not from another's perspective...? Teach me, O great and wise mind-readers."

If you don't read it how can you know you don't like it? Answer what is asked is my policy, not prosthelytize. There is a place for that, but not in the general discussion forums.

Do your own opinions mean a lot, except to you? If so, what qualifies your opinions? If you're asked for opinions, by all means, but if you're responding to a general information topic, perhaps it's best to keep your opinions private.

 

[Black Hand]

If you don't read it how can you know you don't like it? Answer what is asked is my policy, not prosthelytize. There is a place for that, but not in the general discussion forums.

Do your own opinions mean a lot, except to you? If so, what qualifies your opinions? If you're asked for opinions, by all means, but if you're responding to a general information topic, perhaps it's best to keep your opinions private.

I post the facts that I know. I may occasionally post my opinion too, but this is usually easily discerned because I think or I believe or something else to this effect is near-by. If you find this offensive, then ignore it. And to address your final statement - I don't usually interject my OPINION (see above for exceptions) into general discussions. EXAMPLES: Fact - striker knives ARE NOT PC or HC for our periods of interest. Fact - Molybdenum lubricant IS NOT PC or HC for our periods of interest. Are either of these my opinions? No. But your responses suggest that you think they are...

 

[Gene L]

My question remains: who cares other than you? (maybe a few.) Will traditional ML die if someone uses a striker knife or molybdenum lube? On a flintlock general forum? I'm interested in obsessions and anticipate your reply.

And you're accepting someone else's opinion (not always infallible as evidence) as a settled fact.

 

[Black Hand]

My question remains: who cares other than you? (maybe a few.) Will traditional ML die if someone uses a striker knife or molybdenum lube? On a flintlock general forum? I'm interested in obsessions and anticipate your reply.

I'm interested in the facts and sharing the facts I know. I also truly don't care what your opinion is about the matter...