Historically Incorrect, or (A Story of Thread Counting and Delrin Rods)

[Bob McBride]

I think there are those who see HC/PC as an integral part of their muzzleloading experience because their primary interest is in the period represented by the firearms they choose to shoot. In other words, a proper history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting. Then there are those who do not consider the period correctness of the accoutrements needed to shoot a muzzleloader because their primary interest is in firearms and the shooting sports and have little or no interest in the history represented by their firearm of choice. In other words, a shooter who’s choice of firearm is a bit ‘eccentric’ but otherwise, just a gun. (I am in one camp, so if I am misrepresenting your camp I’d love to know)

I see lots of threads that seems to show these two factions don’t seems to understand where the other is coming from, ie. “Why worry about that? Just use what looks good to you!” or “That’s a sketchy choice because one of those wasn’t around at the time your rifle represents.”

Perhaps a small discussion about why you are in the camp you are in would be helpful in regards to understanding each other....

...sort of a sitting around the fire passing around the peace pipe thread.

Thoughts?

 

[pat i.]

I TRY to keep things as close to HC/PC as my wallet and knowledge can bear for my chosen time period but I'm far from 100%. As far as what the guy in the next camp or shooting stall is using? It has absolutely nothing to do with me so as long as he's happy I'm happy for him. My opinion has always been if every one minded their own business and didnt give opinions unless solicited the world would be a much better place.

 

[Squatch84]

As someone who is just now getting into reenactment after 12 years of shooting muzzleloaders, I see both sides. Trying to get everything together to be 100% accurate but first and foremost I love the shooting the most. So it doesn't really matter to me if I go out with my lyman trade rifle to hunt with, I do have a .45 I made to look close to as period as I could for when I go reenact or something.
Live and let live is what I say.

 

[Robby]

There are precious few left on either side, the meeting at the camp fire will be small, plus they will, for the most part, be old and tired of arguing. I don't see a problem here.
Robby

 

[pat i.]

Not to disagree with you but as far as not many left on either side.....if the lack of muzzleloader supplies is any indication of the amount of muzzleloader enthusiasts out there I might have to disagree a bit.

 

[Two Feathers]

Howdy:
Certainly NOT one to favor cliches', I recall the 70's' "verse" that says "If it feels good do it." I'm NOT a fan of it, but from that perspective I say; if it makes you happy, who am I to whizz on your parade?
I like to keep my accoutrements as close as possible to realistically PC/HA, but by the same token, knowing that we DO NOT live in the 17 or 1800's, means that a LOT of the components necessary to do that, simply don't exist these days, that being said, I like my things to LOOK the part, as to whether they really ARE 100% authentic to to period... DON'T CARE!!! as long as I'm happy, the PC snobs can lay out a ton of cash for their 100% HA accoutrements!! Mine look just as convincing.
Thank you, just my $0.02.
God bless:
Two Feathers

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I like to be as historically accurate as possible at least up to a point.

I like my guns to be closely based and patterned after the originals, without any “modern touches” or anything. I even like such arcane things as proper period ramrod tips and clean with tow in the field.

I’ve gone so far as to have custom bags and horn made for me based on documented period examples and have even used a few antique accouterments in my gear (cap tins, a knife, and old repaired horns). My loading methods match the old ways as well. I can spend hours researching and trying to piece together these vestiges of the past. For example right now I am researching historical methods of loading smoothbores in the 18th century.

It can get very expensive and even a bit tiring to pay for and research all the stuff but it’s a big part of the hobby for me. But to a point it can be too much hand wringing and for example, when basing gear and accouterments on the very early guns, so little has survived to today and there is largely no consensus on what was used so for my early Fusil de Chasse being built for me I’ll probably end up using a kit made with “the best guess” of what they used.

I totally respect the dudes and dudettes rocking CVAs and Pedersoli with generic bags, water buffalo horns, and maybe even a few “modern touches” and having a great time doing it. Absolutely NO DOUBT many of these guys can outshoot me in a minute and love every second of it.

Of all the different shooting hobbies I have or have done, I will say traditional Muzzleloading is the most intrinsically interesting, satisfying, and all around AWESOME of all of them. It can approach at times the level of spirituality. Once you factor in the epic history, amazing craftsmanship, quaint simplicity and nostalgia, and all around FUN and relaxation of shooting them it’s just so cool I can’t even! It’s a vacation from the crazy modern world too and I think these days there’s nothing wrong with that LOL!

I believe there’s room in both camps for each person to come over and sit down and have some hot chocolate or whatever and be friends. I’ve met tons of really neat folks and all are welcome around my fire. As far as I’m concerned, we’re all Muzzleloading buddies and that’s what counts!

 

[painter]

I'm new to this and started because I just like to make smoke.

The only costume I wear is a leather suit, and helmet, when I ride my bike on the track.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[smo]

I usually camp by my self....lol

HC/PC is everyone’s choice, as much as flint vs percussion....

It’s hard for me too choose sides when I’m sitting under Sunforger canvas.

Too each his own,I don’t have any issues with either side.

Most camps these days aren’t that strict on HC/PC unless it’s a juried event.

 

[Two Feathers]

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments? That's just MY viewpoint. I believe, like Smoke Plainsman, that there's room at the campfire for both sides of the conversation. I know everyone in this game isn't rich, I'm certainly NOT, so I make offerings for those who want a good looking product, but don't necessarily need the 100% "top dollar" PC/HA stuff.
Thank you for allowing me into your conversation.
God bless:
Two Feathers

 

[Archer 756]

I believe in making it all simple just enjoy shooting, HC/PC does not matter just enjoy.

 

[kje54]

I think there are those who see HC/PC as an integral part of their muzzleloading experience because their primary interest is in the period represented by the firearms they choose to shoot. In other words, a proper history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting. Then there are those who do not consider the period correctness of the accoutrements needed to shoot a muzzleloader because their primary interest is in firearms and the shooting sports and have little or no interest in the history represented by their firearm of choice. In other words, a shooter who’s choice of firearm is a bit ‘eccentric’ but otherwise, just a gun. (I am in one camp, so if I am misrepresenting your camp I’d love to know)

I see lots of threads that seems to show these two factions don’t seems to understand where the other is coming from, ie. “Why worry about that? Just use what looks good to you!” or “That’s a sketchy choice because one of those wasn’t around at the time your rifle represents.”

Perhaps a small discussion about why you are in the camp you are in would be helpful in regards to understanding each other....

...sort of a sitting around the fire passing around the peace pipe thread.

Thoughts?

I started a thread a while back about the historical accuracy of the Pendersoli Kentucky Longrifle and pretty much everybody who falls into the different categories chimed in.
Loyalist Dave Came up with this:

Well for ME, if I was your personal adviser, I'd say at least a 38" barrel would be needed for a "passable" repro flintlock rifle.

So you must decide where you "fall" into a category of buyer, and there are, from what I've observed,

Five Schools of Thought on Repro Flintlock Rifles...,

ONE
It's a flintlock, so that's fine for me. It works, it hits where I shoot it, and I don't care what others think.

TWO
It would be better for you to get something that "works" for you now, instead of putting off jumping into the hobby until you can "afford" a custom or semi-custom rifle. Life is short, and only you can judge if the cash for the fully correct rifle is in your foreseeable future.

THREE
Get the less costly, sorta right factory flintlock rifle now, and make a few cosmetic changes. That gives you a rifle that is OK to schlep around in the woods, and you won't fret about scratches and dents as you might with a really well made, solo-built, custom rifle.

FOUR
Buy once; cry once. Save up your greenbacks, and get a proper rifle the first time. After all if you buy the factory rifle now, and then save, you will have spent even more money. Sure you will have two rifles, but the money spent on the first rifle only delays you in getting that really nice rifle. (See version TWO)

FIVE
I can't imagine why anybody would ever buy a factory rifle. Mine was hand made, because only the most authentic rifle that I can purchase will do.


LD

Not bad but limited in scope basically because we were discussing firearms only.

Now to categorize differing approaches to "historically correct" the I believe they can be divided into four basic sub categories:

Purist
Also called documentarians and (typically negative connotation) stitch counters. These are the ones who hold the premise that if it isn't documented it didn't exist.

Deductive Realists
Those who take the documented history and apply human and cultural behavior to the mix. For example, we know there are certain schools of muzzleloaders but we also find a large number of those firearms that do not specifically fall into any of those schools. Therefore we can deduce that for every famous gun making school and famous gun makers there were hundreds of unknown and/or not so famous others. This is the same in all areas of historical research.

If it can't be seen or If they'd had it
They would have used it crowd. In this case I believe it's mostly a monetary and/or a convenience/comfort approach.

What's historically correct?
This is comprised of those who could care less about HC or those who think Hollywood represents historically correct versions.

Obviously this is a basic, generalized breakdown of the differing "camps" so to speak but I believe it accurately represents the HC approach.

 

[tenngun]

We are all just trying to have fun. I want to be as HC as possible, but I also have money issues.
Linen $20 something a yard? Cotton $4 I have to choose what I can afford.
And safety issues. Most places that let a camp in want it to be a fire resistant canvas.
I set rules for a trek. I’m alone on the trek. I could start my fire with a bic, cook up an MRI, no one would know. Except me. And I follow my own rules.
Ok, got my gun, my HC patterned stuff, my corn meal and dried veggies and dried meat, but my wool blanket doesn’t look like blankets traded in the old days. And to keep my feet under me I have rubber soles on my shoes.
We are just gray haired kids playing cowboys and Indians

 

[Griz44Mag]

I own and regularly enjoy shooting my guns that range from hand cannon (1300's) to electronically fired modern wizbangs. I keep fuel that ranges from very course black powder to tri-gas that fills a tube and is set it off with a magneto spark. I even have an electronic sparked Remington. (The primer costs more than the bullet now)
If I tried to be HC-PC with what I enjoy shooting I would need 5 more closets to hold everything from armor to spacesuits.
I see nothing wrong about folks who want to look, talk and dress like a specific period or place. I very much enjoy watching them.
The ones that do should see nothing wrong with folks like me who just enjoy shooting - pretty much anything and everything that catches their interest.
This specific forum represents one specialized period of time - just not the one we currently exist in.
Now - let's all get together and have a big group social distanced modern style simulated hug (period correct for 2020 and on.

 

[Griz44Mag]

We are just gray haired kids playing cowboys and Indians

 

[user 49399]

I grew up watching Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett and all the good old westerns on TV. Thankfully I still can with my TV service. As a kid I liked to pretend I was Daniel Boone and still do to a point. Guess you could say I'm a history and Hollywood western buff who likes to shoot.

I'm also a fourth generation blacksmith (my son a fifth). We still use my great grandfathers anvil, blower, vice and other tools. We are just amateurs but we enjoy it. I remember my dad and uncles talking about great grandfathers old 'hawg rifle', a percussion long rifle, which today we would call a barn gun or southern mountain rifle. One of my muzzleloaders is what I think a close representation of that gun even though I never saw it.

Even though all my gear is not exactly, 100%, pc/hc, I try to make most of it look like it is. For example, the last two horns I made were made to look old, not new and shiny. I try to make my accouterments match each style of rifle I have whether it's colonial, Hawken, Kentucky rifle or whatever.

 

[TFoley]

If anybody turned up on the range here in UK dressed up like Jeremiah Johnson it would -

a. cause a few comments.

b. not last long because the men in white coats would have been called pretty soon after he arrived to take him away in one of those hard-wearing jackets that, for some reason, have the sleeves on back-to-front...

Unless you have been specifically invited to do so, say, for a guest day and to demonstrate your ol' Betsy, it would be unheard of. In fact, in all the years I've been shooting here in UK, and that's quite few, on and off, I've never seen it happen. A couple of years back I was laffed at because I was wearing my old Confederate Corporal of Artillery jacket and kepi, even though I WAS shooting a Musketoon, like the real person might have done. I was reminded by one of the usual 'Jobs-worths' that the wearing of military uniform whilst engaged in recreational shooting was a no-no. I reminded her of the other meaning of the word 'recreational', to no avail. 'Take it off, or take off' was the response.

And of course, rendezvous's, like you all take for granted in the USA, are definitely a non-no as far as live-firing with projectiles is concerned - most everywhere in the world, I'm betting, except the USA. Walks in the woods, shooting at REAL targets with live ammunition? C'mon, folks.

Aren't you guys lucky?

 

[tenngun]

For the moment.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

If anybody turned up on the range here in UK dressed up like Jeremiah Johnson it would -

a. cause a few comments.

b. not last long because the men in white coats would have been called pretty soon after he arrived to take him away in one of those hard-wearing jackets that, for some reason, have the sleeves on back-to-front...

Unless you have been specifically invited to do so, say, for a guest day and to demonstrate your ol' Betsy, it would be unheard of. In fact, in all the years I've been shooting here in UK, and that's quite few, on and off, I've never seen it happen. A couple of years back I was laffed at because I was wearing my old Confederate Corporal of Artillery jacket and kepi, even though I WAS shooting a Musketoon, like the real person might have done. I was reminded by one of the usual 'Jobs-worths' that the wearing of military uniform whilst engaged in recreational shooting was a no-no. I reminded her of the other meaning of the word 'recreational', to no avail. 'Take it off, or take off' was the response.

And of course, rendezvous's, like you all take for granted in the USA, are definitely a non-no as far as live-firing with projectiles is concerned - most everywhere in the world, I'm betting, except the USA. Walks in the woods, shooting at REAL targets with live ammunition? C'mon, folks.

Aren't you guys lucky?

You have better ale, though!

 

[billraby]

I make an effort to keep everything historically correct. I also stray from that sometimes. Mostly with carving and engraving. My standard is historically plausible. It might not have been done on any originals, but it could have been. So a Lancaster rifle with a patch box style from the next county over is perfectly acceptable. A 1770 rifle with a Hawken trigger guard is not going to work. Especially if it has Spider Man engraved on it.

I can understand the guys that get into making sure every little detail is historically correct and fully documented. I imagine the research they do to get it all right is probably half the fun for them. But those guys get really annoying when they demand that everyone else does the same.