Historically Incorrect, or (A Story of Thread Counting and Delrin Rods)

[kje54]

As can be seen from my avatar and my comments on attending juried events at Fort de Chartres, I have a great interest and desire to be PC and HC. In the red uniform, most of the stitching is hand sewn. The few concessions are to items that will be unseen such as my cot at some events and even at my age, ( too old to be a grenadier), I sleep on the ground at the April Trade Faire at Fort de Chartres. The restrictions due to the Corona virus and applied by the state of Illinois have once again postponed that event.

I also shoot with my muzzle loading gun club. There the emphasis is on having a firearm that is accurate and using the tools to make shooting safe and enjoyable. The measuring valve on my can of powder, the spotting scope to view targets or the use of the water soluble oil and water for patch lube. There is far less concern at the club range about historical accuracy other than requiring a traditional firearm. Even the 30+ pound bench rifles will have a more or less traditional lock.

Ultimately, whether we are shooting in a historical, period correct manner or just enjoying the shooting of a traditional styled rifle, Its all good and not to worry about discussions of whether the furnishing should be brass or iron, round ball or conical, Colt, Remington or Ruger revolvers, slow twist, fast twist or no twist, Pyrodex or black powder, CCI, Remington or RWS caps.

Heathen!!!! Blasphemer!!!

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm probably an inbetweener with hc vs. not. My primary interest is shooting old style muzzle loaders with others of like interest and who are good company. I have belonged to a reenactment group and attended ronnies. For correctness, I don't give a whiff if the scales on my knife are held on with brass or iron pins. I do what best I can at any given time. I have articles (knife, clothing, etc.) that were carefully researched and made as hc as possible. Then some 'expert' will come along to tell me they ain't correct and/or the sources I used are wrong. When that happens I fall back on my own mantra "do yer own thang".

 

[BJHabermehl]

Bob,
Thanks for this thread and for the folks who responded so far. As my post above shows, I'm not one that dresses the part and is driven to be HC/PC. That said, some posts here are making me think more about that side if this game.
As an aside, I was turned off by an "actor" as mentioned in the post above. That may be a reason why I didn't look too deeply into the camps and such in previous years.
This year I'm going to get to one. I may have to borrow some gear, may have to make due with some stuff and hope it doesn't offend anyone's sensibilities, but I want to see what these camps/shoots are all about. On the positive side, I shoot so bad that I may help others to build their self esteem!

Your more than welcome to visit our clubs frozen toe weekend the first weekend in March. We will probably have a rather relaxed primitive camp. And a bunch of black powder shooting. We are in the pa federation of black powder shooters book for more info or Pm me. At our smooth bore shoot period dress etc is encouraged but we don’t stitch count. Our labor day weekend Ronny has a separate primitive camp and a tin tepe area. Tackle box shooters are welcome, we try to keep the primitive camp primitive from supper time on. BJH

 

[Kenn]

I think there are those who see HC/PC as an integral part of their muzzleloading experience because their primary interest is in the period represented by the firearms they choose to shoot. In other words, a proper history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting. Then there are those who do not consider the period correctness of the accoutrements needed to shoot a muzzleloader because their primary interest is in firearms and the shooting sports and have little or no interest in the history represented by their firearm of choice. In other words, a shooter who’s choice of firearm is a bit ‘eccentric’ but otherwise, just a gun. (I am in one camp, so if I am misrepresenting your camp I’d love to know)

I see lots of threads that seems to show these two factions don’t seems to understand where the other is coming from, ie. “Why worry about that? Just use what looks good to you!” or “That’s a sketchy choice because one of those wasn’t around at the time your rifle represents.”

Perhaps a small discussion about why you are in the camp you are in would be helpful in regards to understanding each other....

...sort of a sitting around the fire passing around the peace pipe thread.

Thoughts?

Your perspective is well-taken. There's probably any level of historically accurate representation one could achieve, depending on personal goals &/or the group one desires to join. Having been an American Civil War re-enactor, I've witnessed both ends of the spectrum. The organisation in which I was a member was quite understanding. A correct presentation was the main goal, but some members went so far as to be concerned over clothing stitch counts & types, such as hand- versus machine-sewn. Others made a proper appearance, but realised no spectator would inspect historical accuracy to that extent.

Some of our events were covered by local & network television, yet the editing I saw broadcast seemed well-planned. As was stated by another forum member, our present-day is a great distance from the 19th century, or 18th century for that matter. So, how far is one willing &/or able to go in being historically correct?

That belt buckle -- was it hand-forged or mass-produced? And how was the barrel manufactured that's beautifully mounted in your stock? How about the firearm's furniture? What did you eat for lunch? Assuming you had lunch, was it consumed with period-correct utensils, prepared with historically correct implements & procedures? And how were those utensils made? How was the grain planted & harvested that comprised the flour used for making your bread?

Coffee beans. Okay, so they're green & pre-roasted, so you roasted them yourself. Then you ground them on a tree stump with your rifle butt. That's fun maybe & relatively admirable, but how were the beans harvested & transported? There's almost no end to how extreme one can go with this. I don't think we need to extend period correctness to the types of medical & dental care we receive.

I believe we needn't become so extreme as to be dictatorial of others. For those who join an historical organisation, follow their rules & recommendations. However, take time to enjoy the experience. We're all at some level on a learning curve; some are more accomplished & are a wealth of information. I'm amazed sometimes by just how much others know, & I sincerely enjoy listening to or reading of what they have to impart! Some can leave me awestruck by their knowledge & abilities!

Forums like this are super! Thought provoking input like yours perhaps causes others to pause & consider the various aspects of what we do & why we enjoy our activities so much. You provided great, constructive thoughts; thanks for taking time to share them.

 

[Artificer]

Rudyard, you and I, and anybody else who lives in the UK, knows that walking around the woods and using a rifle to hunt deer - over here it's called stalking - is a perfectly acceptable and legal way of burning powder and getting game. But ONLY where the land has been deemed shootable, and then only if it is a registered 'permission'. Getting togged up in 18th or early 19th C equipment and meandering around, even with a bunch of other folks of similar mind, shooting at 'marks', just any old where, as they seem to do in the USA, is something I'd like to see, but never will.

It's not a matter of it being government 'bumf' it is the law that prevents it from ever happening.

As a matter of some interest, whilst out 'going historic' were you wearing clothing and equipment contemporary with the firearm you were shooting?

In 1996 whilst attending the World Championships at Wedgnock, Midlands, UK, I was amazed to find out from one of our paid local bus drivers, that he was in an "American Civil War Reenactment Unit." Back then they used the REAL Parker Hale muskets and did wear uniforms and fired blank loads at the opposing sides. He even remarked they invited some "American Re-enactors" to come over and participate, but to quote him "they weren't much fun." With a chuckle he basically said the Americans were shocked by the way they "went at it when they closed to short range" and quite a few folks got black eyes, sore cheeks/limbs and even a few loosened or missing teeth." When I looked at him quizzically, he explained most of them were also amateur rugby players, so they carried that over into their reenacting.

So I dug through my boxes of parts that night and found three original Yankee Coat Buttons I had forgotten to take out before the trip to England. I was happy to find him again driving our bus the next day on the way to our visiting the National Agricultural Center. When we arrived, I gave him the buttons as a special way to thank him for driving us around. That really pleased him because his re-enactment unit was a Federal Unit.

Gus

 

[Bob McBride]

In 1996 whilst attending the World Championships at Wedgnock, Midlands, UK, I was amazed to find out from one of our paid local bus drivers, that he was in an "American Civil War Reenactment Unit." Back then they used the REAL Parker Hale muskets and did wear uniforms and fired blank loads at the opposing sides. He even remarked they invited some "American Re-enactors" to come over and participate, but to quote him "they weren't much fun." With a chuckle he basically said the Americans were shocked by the way they "went at it when they closed to short range" and quite a few folks got black eyes, sore cheeks/limbs and even a few loosened or missing teeth." When I looked at him quizzically, he explained most of them were also amateur rugby players, so they carried that over into their reenacting.

So I dug through my boxes of parts that night and found three original Yankee Coat Buttons I had forgotten to take out before the trip to England. I was happy to find him again driving our bus the next day on the way to our visiting the National Agricultural Center. When we arrived, I gave him the buttons as a special way to thank him for driving us around. That really pleased him because his re-enactment unit was a Federal Unit.

Gus

I guess we know who would win if war broke out between our two country’s reenacting corps....

 

[Artificer]

I guess we know who would win if war broke out between our two country’s reenacting corps....

ROTFLMAO!!! Some of we reenactors were or had been on active duty in the military and we would have used club muskets had we been attacked. Grin. However, most American re-enactors would definitely not have stood up to that. Chuckle.


Gus

 

[Tanglefoot]

Interesting reading, all four pages. I reckon it's time to put my oar in the water for whatever it's worth. My first muzzleloaders were originals because that's all there was available as far as I knew. One of my friends growing up had an attic full of them that his father had collected and we used to shoot them from time to time. My Dad was the baby of his family and he was born in 1903. His oldest brother was a young adult during the 1800's and I remember him as a man in his 80's when I was small, telling stories of his travels. My own first muzzleloader was a Harper's Ferry Rifle and my first cap `n ball handgun was an 1858 Remington Army.
Always been interested in weaponry and learning about that gave me a parallel interest in history, as they do tend to follow each other. So! For those reasons, and all the other reasons those create, I like to be HC when I can, and I work at that --- but that's a personal preference. Having factory made ML guns allows a lot more folks to get interested in the sport, even if they just start it to take advantage of the additional seasons. If one or two of them out of every dozen who start out that way get interested in in HC guns and gear later on, that's even better.
I also truly enjoy being around buckskinners and helping others learn about the things that I'm interested in --- and most of all, I enjoy learning how to do things the way they were done back before modern conveniences. I have no wish to live back then even if I could. I would not have survived to my present age if it were not for modern medical technology and if I had survived despite the odds I would be functionally deaf, blind, toothless, and crippled. There's not a day that passes that I'm not aware of that and grateful. That said, learning the "old" ways and practicing them to the extent possible pleases me --- and some of it surely came in handy in Survival School in the Army! So I keep trying to learn and passing on useful things to my children and grandchildren, and sometimes others, a bit of which they may remember well enough to help them. I can't abide stitch counters myself, but nobody said I had to hang out with them.
There floats my stick.
Tanglefoot

 

[poker]

Im generally in the camp of letting others enjoy their sport as they see fit. However I do find it amusing that some seem to be all about PC/HC but then are promoting Kiblers or CNC machining every oppportunity available.

 

[Artificer]

Your perspective is well-taken. There's probably any level of historically accurate representation one could achieve, depending on personal goals &/or the group one desires to join. Having been an American Civil War re-enactor, I've witnessed both ends of the spectrum. The organisation in which I was a member was quite understanding. A correct presentation was the main goal, but some members went so far as to be concerned over clothing stitch counts & types, such as hand- versus machine-sewn. Others made a proper appearance, but realised no spectator would inspect historical accuracy to that extent.

Some of our events were covered by local & network television, yet the editing I saw broadcast seemed well-planned. As was stated by another forum member, our present-day is a great distance from the 19th century, or 18th century for that matter. So, how far is one willing &/or able to go in being historically correct?

That belt buckle -- was it hand-forged or mass-produced? And how was the barrel manufactured that's beautifully mounted in your stock? How about the firearm's furniture? What did you eat for lunch? Assuming you had lunch, was it consumed with period-correct utensils, prepared with historically correct implements & procedures? And how were those utensils made? How was the grain planted & harvested that comprised the flour used for making your bread?

Coffee beans. Okay, so they're green & pre-roasted, so you roasted them yourself. Then you ground them on a tree stump with your rifle butt. That's fun maybe & relatively admirable, but how were the beans harvested & transported? There's almost no end to how extreme one can go with this. I don't think we need to extend period correctness to the types of medical & dental care we receive.

I believe we needn't become so extreme as to be dictatorial of others. For those who join an historical organisation, follow their rules & recommendations. However, take time to enjoy the experience. We're all at some level on a learning curve; some are more accomplished & are a wealth of information. I'm amazed sometimes by just how much others know, & I sincerely enjoy listening to or reading of what they have to impart! Some can leave me awestruck by their knowledge & abilities!

Forums like this are super! Thought provoking input like yours perhaps causes others to pause & consider the various aspects of what we do & why we enjoy our activities so much. You provided great, constructive thoughts; thanks for taking time to share them.

Kenn,

Your query about coffee beans just reminded me of the first time in the early 1980's, that one of guys in my unit was using an original recipe for coffee that called for boiling the whole beans in the pot. Now, everyone in my unit knew I drank coffee no matter how hot or humid it was, so they offered me the first cup to try. I looked at the pot and from under the lid was seeping out something that resembled the boiling mud flats in Yellowstone Park, I had seen years earlier.

I replied, "Is the only thing in that pot coffee beans and water?" When they replied yes, I put my tin cup down so they could pour me a cup. When I tasted it, My God it was the most horrible cup of coffee I had ever had and that included "Mid Watch Coffee" that you can stand a spoon upright in!! I almost gagged, which kept me from replying for a few seconds and then I slowly and carefully replied, " I think you might want to add some chicory to that the next time, though it's not the worst cup of coffee I've ever had." At that he poured himself and a few other brave souls a cup. It was all I could do to keep from laughing until they tasted it and began loud exclamations on how terrible it was. Even the guy who made it made some strange faces before he poured the cup out on the ground. From that time onward, he was known as "Chef Ptomaine," even though he did a good job of cooking lunch for everyone at all the events he participated in. LOL.

Gus

 

[Pete G]

how about the saying-IF THEY HAD IT THEY WOULD HAVE USED IT!

Like a generator to power a microwave oven????

 

[Bob McBride]

Im generally in the camp of letting others enjoy their sport as they see fit. However I do find it amusing that some seem to be all about PC/HC but then are promoting Kiblers or CNC machining every oppportunity available.

That is sort of a line for some isn’t it? CNCing? I think Kibler’s contribution is making guns similarly to the way factory guns are made but with correct architecture, top quality parts, much tighter custom-like specs and at a much cheaper price than a custom gun, bringing that sort of quality to more folks. Seems there’s a market for that. Kibler’s are closer to a $3500 custom gun than anything else but priced more like a Pedersoli. Pretty hard to hate on that, even for an HC guy. I guarantee as soon as he announces a Brown Bess every hard nose stitch counter will have his deposit in.

 

[Musketeer]

I guarantee as soon as he announces a Brown Bess every hard nose stitch counter will have his deposit in.

I can already see myself holding a Kibler Bess, tears streaming down my cheeks and an angelic choir singing in the background.

 

[Robby]

Yep, CNC is making high quality guns more affordable to the average guy, and in Mr. Kiblers' case historically accurate to boot!
Robby

 

[Rudyard]

Quite a lot of interest in this theme postings .I could have added for T Foley
that I wore an earlier form of dirk the' Dudgeon dagger ' 12 "blade & its short ex table bye knife in the hills. Very handy for taking off billies from the fire. And at the wedding wore a mid 18 th 12" dirk with two bye knives in its sheath plus a lemon butt snaphance 50 cal pistol . The dirk we cut the cake with ( The pistol being too blunt ) .
Rudyard

 

[tenngun]

I think looking back we should recall how our hobby got started. Guys getting together to shoot old guns. They form the NMLRA
Then some boys started dressing in the best Hollywood version of what they thought was proper clothing for the gun.
Centennial of the WBTS show up. Intrest starte to generate in the mid 1950s and reinactments started. Zouaves from Dixie gun works, Blue Or gray gas station kackies and a kipi via Disney Land.
And other boys wanting to be Fess Parker.
everyone of us is on a journey.

 

[Art Caputo]

I make a conscious effort to be HC/PC correct with my rifles, shooting accessories, and methods. Being primarily a hunter and casual shooter, I haven’t gotten into the clothing/appearance aspects. Having started my muzzleloading with TC and CVA rifles and evolved the HC/PC over the years, I never felt that I deviated from the basic tradition of the sport and experienced great satisfaction along the way. For this reason I could never cast judgement for someone’s choice of equipment.

 

[Blitz]

I TRY to keep things as close to HC/PC as my wallet and knowledge can bear for my chosen time period but I'm far from 100%. As far as what the guy in the next camp or shooting stall is using? It has absolutely nothing to do with me so as long as he's happy I'm happy for him. My opinion has always been if every one minded their own business and didnt give opinions unless solicited the world would be a much better place.

YES! AS people mostly used to say and live when I was a kid. Not nearly so contentious as nowdays.

Buzz

 

[poker]

Boy, do I agree with you about that. The CNC machining doesnt hurt my feelings one bit, and Id be happy to own a Kibler.
But I was simply pointing out the blurring of the lines people show when it comes to HC/PC.

 

[Bob McBride]

Boy, do I agree with you about that. The CNC machining doesnt hurt my feelings one bit, and Id be happy to own a Kibler.
But I was simply pointing out the blurring of the lines people show when it comes to HC/PC.

You were certainly right. That is where the line blurs. Liking things to be MADE in the traditional way and to BE traditional 'in form' is sort of the pinnacle and Ye Ol' CNC machine seems to contradict those sort of purist ideals. I like to be HC/PC but am not a purist....in the purest sense. That's a rabbit hole that has no bottom, seems to me.