Historically accurate reproduction Brown Bess

[Loyalist Dave]

Well to tell you the truth, I really can't as my area of interest ends in 1783.., and I had to give you the reference that I found as to what was wrong with the 2nd model. Plus I forgot that the sling swivels on the Pedersoli are also not correct.

Even the National Firearms Museum curator, Phil Schreier (a boyhood friend of mine and fellow Boy Scout) is incorrect in his short youtube presentation on the Brown Bess, saying it made its final appearance in North America in the War of 1812..., well the Texans at the Alamo and at the other battle sites in Texas might dispute that (the Mexicans were armed with the 3rd model Bess), as well as the 11th Tennesee - the Rebel Sons of Erin, of the ACW.

Perhaps he meant the last appearance of the Bess in the hands of British troops in North America was in The War of 1812. ??? :hmm: THAT has to be what he means, as that IS correct, and he's usually "dead-on" in his firearms information.

As for light infantry, you can go with 3rd model or a heavy dragoon carbine. The best thing would be for you to pick a unit of some sort, an then copy what they had, rather than go too generic. AND be sure the unit that you choose browned the barrel. There is a lot of time between Wolf at Quebec and the Napoleonic Wars, and even though Wolf authorized some LI units to brown barrels, it wasn't always done, in his time or after. It was a sort of on-again, off-again procedure with the British army, and then the "browning" could be from a light brown patina to knock down the shine, to a really chocolate brown from a deliberate processing of the barrel and lock.

LD

 

[Teggy89]

thanks for the tip! looks like ill be doing a lot more research though haha

also sorry to ask more of you dave but if you are able can you do a breakdown of the loyalist 2nd model bess features that don't match with originals?

they claim it was reproduced from an original 1768 model bess the company owns, so I hope they got it right

 

[Rifleman1776]

Your rendition of detailed differences is commendable.
I understand how some folks are sticklers about the historical minutae. That is good. We need people like you.
Fact is, however, I believe most folks who bought the Navy Arms/Ped. BBs are very pleased with them in their ignorance of the small differences. I am in that category. My BB, built from a Navy Arms kit is a good looking historicaly representative piece and I have been a proud owner and shooter of it for 35 years.
Hope ye won't kick me away from yer campfire if I carry it around ye one day. :wink:

 

[woodsie]

I got my longland pattern bess from FlintlockRepair.com I compared it to my originals I have. Earl Kathem is a gun smith who sells these and it by hands down been the best I bought. It comes ready to fire. I got the Dublin Castle lock and I fired it. I allso own a third model from Military heritage it was comparable but not as original. And as for Pedorseli the locks are way off from the originals. So just my thoughts on the Bess.

 

[Teggy89]

yeah I like the look of Earl Kathem's muskets, and the fact hes a gunsmith first.

Ill be comparing his and the loyalist 3rd model bess against an original and see who comes out on top

I wonder if he gets his muskets from the same Indian factory as any of the major companies?

 

[Teggy89]

just going through this site
http://www.11thpa.org/Bess.html

has some info on the second model, both the 1768 and 1777 versions

earl's second model 1768 bess is almost identical to me

-it has the 1756 style lock which is correct because the less expensive one wasn't introduced until 1777,

-also it has "tower" marked on the lock which was introduced in 1764

-as well as the reduced carving of the wood and different "curled" trigger of the short pattern

- has the escutcheon and reduced butt tang without the top screw

the loyalist 2nd model to me has two main things wrong

- it retains the elaborate wood carving of the earlier models, but the second had reduced wood carvings

- it has the manufacture "edge" marked on it, but in 1764 manufacturers had to start putting "tower" on their muskets

every thing else seems to be right, I have a feeling the "original" 1768 bess they copied it off was a cut down long land pattern or as dave mentioned a second model with old parts

just thought id share my untrained observations, I like bouncing ideas off people :haha:

 

[pargent]

The 1777 lock was not introduced because it was cheaper to make,but rather it used a shorter sear spring which was less prone to breaking.This style of lock had already been in production for over 8 years by the lock makers,they had been supplying these to the makers of the EIC muskets.The 2 screw (sear spring) style of lock was not a new idea in 1770 it had been in use by lock makers from the early 1700s . .Brown Besses are refered to buy their patterns not by their models. The new Indian muskets more closly resemble the later precusion evolution of the 2nd India Pattern ,fitted with a flint lock, they can be pimped to make them very close . :thumbsup:

 

[Teggy89]

thanks for the insight!

so it's

-long land pattern
- short land pattern
- east india pattern

not first, second, third model

but the 1768 short land pattern would still have the older style lock correct? I'm only a amateur so less work i have to do the better

 

[Coot]

thanks for the insight!

so it's

-long land pattern
- short land pattern
- east india pattern

Not quite. It's much more complicated. There are multiple patterns within each of the three broad groups you list above. To really get a hold of the Bess & it's variants, I suggest that you get a copy of "The Brown Bess" by Erik Goldstein and Stuart Mowbray (pub 2010). The book is soft bound & not expensive but full of detailed close up pictures that show the differences between the various patterns that often cannot be seen in low resolution full length photos used in some references. The authors cover 14 patterns from the 1730 Long Land thru the 1809 India Pattern (type 2)

 

[Teggy89]

i have that book waiting for me at home once i get out of the sand pit

should be a good read :thumbsup:

 

[Ken Cormier]

Find some one to make a copy

 

[CrackStock]

"once i get out of the sand pit"

God's speed.

 

[Carteret Kid]

More complications arise when you realize military weapons were (and still are) periodically rearsenaled, rebuilt and useable parts are reused. They stopped dating Bess lock plates because of complaints over new reconditioned weapons with old dates showing. I believe composite Bess muskets that dont really fit any pattern were commonly used, particularly on the American side.

 

[Teggy89]

i'm Australian and loyal to the commonwealth, so redcoats for me :blah:

oh and happy Independence day fellas

"once i get out of the sand pit"

God's speed.

thanks, we left the country before we could join in on the celebrations with the yanks we were posted with unfortunately, but looked like they were going to have fun

once i get back ill be buying a short land pattern from Earl Kathan with some work all ready done to it, they look so much better than the EIC pattern to me :thumbsup:

thanks for all the input!