Historical Loading and Safety

[Snake Pleskin]

Hienlien said ‘did you ever notice how much mature wisdom resembles being too tired’

Well, as a Sci Fi writer he just may have a point. Darned if I know? I am tired a lot and as for wisdom, some days i wonder?/ : )

 

[TobJohn]

Here is the National Park Service's matchlock manual for exibitions.

"The stock should be oiled with an application of olive oil
This is the traditional Spanish method and the least
invasive to the weapons’ form."

Well that is some new information haha

 

[Snake Pleskin]

"The stock should be oiled with an application of olive oil
This is the traditional Spanish method and the least
invasive to the weapons’ form."

Well that is some new information haha

Interesting

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Some paper cartridges from the mid 1500's.
Have used a bit of olive oil, just enough to keep a stock clean and a bit shiny!
This on homemade, and finished with linseed and turpentine.

The cartridges in the patrone have the paper cartridge tied to the ball spru.

 

[TobJohn]

Some paper cartridges from the mid 1500's.
Have used a bit of olive oil, just enough to keep a stock clean and a bit shiny!
This on homemade, and finished with linseed and turpentine.View attachment 157615
View attachment 157616
The cartridges in the patrone have the paper cartridge tied to the ball spru.

Those are neat examples, thanks!

I have seen other claims that a lot of early paper cartridges were only the powder and the ball was still loaded separately.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Those are neat examples, thanks!

I have seen other claims that a lot of early paper cartridges were only the powder and the ball was still loaded separately.

I have only seen the ones where powder and ball is combined. The Civil war ones we re-enacted with were made like that. Powder, tied off, ball on top , top tied closed. You bit the cartridge, held the ball portion in your mouth, dumped the powder in the barrel, put the cartridge paper in next as a wad, then the ball(actually a Minnie), and any paper that was left and rammed it all home. (IMHO)

 

[TobJohn]

I have only seen the ones where powder and ball is combined. The Civil war ones we re-enacted with were made like that. Powder, tied off, ball on top , top tied closed. You bit the cartridge, held the ball portion in your mouth, dumped the powder in the barrel, put the cartridge paper in next as a wad, then the ball(actually a Minnie), and any paper that was left and rammed it all home. (IMHO)

I had meant really early, like pre 30 years war.

Is that method for the Springfield style cartridges? For the rifle muskets, I am only really familiar with British made Enfield cartridges.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I had meant really early, like pre 30 years war.

Is that method for the Springfield style cartridges? For the rifle muskets, I am only really familiar with British made Enfield cartridges.

yes, Springfield's, Zouaves, Mississippi's etc., Most military muskets of the Civil war period.

 

[TobJohn]

yes, Springfield's, Zouaves, Mississippi's etc., Most military muskets of the Civil war period.

That makes sense. Didn't both sides use a similar method for their Enfields too, instead of the British one? I enjoy civil war history and tactics, but the nitty gritty of the weapons themselves is a bit out of my area of expertise. I do have an uberti dragoon sitting on my desk, but it may not get taken to a range until I have all the matchlock stuff sorted out.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

That makes sense. Didn't both sides use a similar method for their Enfields too, instead of the British one? I enjoy civil war history and tactics, but the nitty gritty of the weapons themselves is a bit out of my area of expertise. I do have an uberti dragoon sitting on my desk, but it may not get taken to a range until I have all the matchlock stuff sorted out.

I am personally not familiar with the British Enfield loading protocol. Both the North N South used the same weapons( or very close variations) and ammunitions ,often taking said ammunitions' from each other ,even during battles. As long as it was a .58 caliber, the most popular, the ammunition was useable, There were other calibers in use like .54 and even some larger calibers (.62 & .75) for older muskets when firearms were hard to come by. But by n large they used very similar weaponry.

 

[TobJohn]

I am personally not familiar with the British Enfield loading protocol. Both the North N South used the same weapons( or very close variations) and ammunitions ,often taking said ammunitions' from each other ,even during battles. As long as it was a .58 caliber, the most popular, the ammunition was useable, There were other calibers in use like .54 and even some larger calibers (.62 & .75) for older muskets when firearms were hard to come by. But by n large they used very similar weaponry.

I believe it is bite and pour, put bullet (still in cartridge) in barrel, tear off of the paper above the bullet, ram down. I am sure someone else here knows way better than I, but the major different is that you don't use most of the paper as wadding.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

John,
This you show is essentially the Enfield cartridge.
I gather the South's goal was to use this cartridge and no others .

Brett Gibbons book, The English Cartridge covers this very thoroughly.
After two years of covid stupidity, Brett was once again able to attend our Alberta shoot!

 

[TobJohn]

John,
This you show is essentially the Enfield cartridge.
I gather the South's goal was to use this cartridge and no others .

Brett Gibbons book, The English Cartridge covers this very thoroughly.
After two years of covid stupidity, Brett was once again able to attend our Alberta shoot!

An Enfield is on my list, after the replica matchlocks and hopefully an original Toradar and Tanegashima, so thanks for the recommendation! It may be a while though and a flintlock fowler/trade gun may cut its place in line haha.

I saw the britishmuzzleloaders video (re: me being a dork) on that and it looked like you guys had a fun time!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

We always do, John!
Been hosting these shoots since 2005.
maybe 2019 , we shot some matchlocks, inc my old Rajput Toradar/torador. It will be on Brit. Muzzleloaders.

 

[TobJohn]

We always do, John!
Been hosting these shoots since 2005.
maybe 2019 , we shot some matchlocks, inc my old Rajput Toradar/torador. It will be on Brit. Muzzleloaders.

Now that you’ve said it, I can admit that I did see that already haha. I was trying to find examples of toradars and Google gave me a convenient example from a channel i already respected, which is increasingly rare of them. I believe your friend had one of Rudyard’s pieces in that video too!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, Martyn has one of Rudyards guns. ..Mary Rose type!
Martyn of X -Ring services...
Rudyard's from Sheffield and lives in NZ.
Martyn's from Grimsby and lives in Washington, and I am from near Middlesbrough and live in Alberta!

 

[TobJohn]

Some paper cartridges from the mid 1500's.
Have used a bit of olive oil, just enough to keep a stock clean and a bit shiny!
This on homemade, and finished with linseed and turpentine.View attachment 157615
View attachment 157616
The cartridges in the patrone have the paper cartridge tied to the ball spru.

What is the specific method of wood finishing you used with linseed oil and turpentine? I am trying to educate myself on “period correct” (1400-1600) wood finishing/wood finishing in general for a small project and that seems in the realm of what seems right.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

John,
On maple where a stain is required, I used nitric acid stain, then run over a heat source for darkening. this raises grain a bit, but if burnished while slopping on a 50/50 mix of linseed and turpentine, it all smooths down and stays smooth.
I slop plenty on until the stock won't take any more, then set aside. after a day or so, rub it hard with a coarse cloth to remove any buildup on surface.
then, a bit applied with fingers and rubbed in hard, applied very sparingly, and you will see a lovely finish beginning to appear.
as a grain filler, clean wood ash can be used, (remove old nails and cigarette butts, as Frank House told me!)
or a more traditional powder, and can't think of its name! Fuller's earth comes to mind but that's not it!
Have a tin in the workshop too.
Old guns seemed to be treated with linseed oil, or painted in the 16th and early 17th C.
Old stocks were scraped and burnished, not sanded.
With the linseed /turps treatment, a high gloss will appear, thet is very forgiving. if you apply too much, rub it back with a coarse cloth to remove surface build up.
this stock was finished this way;

best, Richard.

 

[TobJohn]

John,
On maple where a stain is required, I used nitric acid stain, then run over a heat source for darkening. this raises grain a bit, but if burnished while slopping on a 50/50 mix of linseed and turpentine, it all smooths down and stays smooth.
I slop plenty on until the stock won't take any more, then set aside. after a day or so, rub it hard with a coarse cloth to remove any buildup on surface.
then, a bit applied with fingers and rubbed in hard, applied very sparingly, and you will see a lovely finish beginning to appear.
as a grain filler, clean wood ash can be used, (remove old nails and cigarette butts, as Frank House told me!)
or a more traditional powder, and can't think of its name! Fuller's earth comes to mind but that's not it!
Have a tin in the workshop too.
Old guns seemed to be treated with linseed oil, or painted in the 16th and early 17th C.
Old stocks were scraped and burnished, not sanded.
With the linseed /turps treatment, a high gloss will appear, thet is very forgiving. if you apply too much, rub it back with a coarse cloth to remove surface build up.
this stock was finished this way;

best, Richard. View attachment 160950

Beautiful finish on that piece.

Thank you for the detailed description, it is very helpful!
I impulse bought a rifle shoppe handgonne/Hackenbuchse kit last week because it was cheap, in stock (allegedly), and looked manageable for my novice abilities. For something from the 1400s, it sounds like that 50/50 mixture would be appropriate? Good to know about not sanding, because I had not even thought about that. I have seen examples of arquebus with painted stocks in various paintings from that era, but just finding paintings or surviving wood stocks of handgonnes has proven to be more difficult.

 

[Irishmusket]

Are "apostle" bandoliers fun living history, or a great way to blow myself up? I have seen historic accounts attesting to their danger, but that is mostly because you have an entire unit of musketeers frantically handling slow match. Having an explosive on my chest and close to a match seems a little sketchy. They are really common amongst reenactors, so some level of safety must be assumed. They are also such an integral part of the history and aesthetic, so it would be shame to avoid them. Do any of you all shoot with them? If people generally agree to their safety, are there any good places to source them? I found an English maker that did a lot of distribution to USA, but it looks like Brexit put him out of business: Bandoliers for the 17th century Musketeer and other wood turned items.

In a similar vein, does anyone have any information on how Haken/Hakenbüchse/Doppelhaken were loaded with powder? I have a promising lead on having a replica 30 years war light haken (not sure how its categorized in English) made and wanted to load it with some authenticity. Unfortunately, the only information on this type of gun in English was from Michael Tromner, at least from what I can find. I fear he may have been the only one that could provide some input. The only related information I could find was this C&Rsenal video on a much later flintlock wall gun, that was loaded with paper cartridges:
Is it safe to assume they would have just used a flask or horn to store the powder?

Bandoliers are useful With matchlocks how ever their are several safety issues 1 your charge bottles must seal well.2Your charge bottle should never be charged full never never !! .It should be loaded with one charge only that is correct for your musket and that should never exceed 1 half of the volume of the charge bottle it is vital for safety .3 Minde your match ! make sure before you buy or make a bandolier that the above issues will work their are many people making them for sale that are more decretive than safely functional.The most authentic and best quality bandoliers in my experience come Grahm Webb his web site is Going bang.He is in Yorkshire England.They will cost you about 200 $ but well worth they are the real deal and actually made to be used in live fire demonstrations in public and Hunting. I am an active musketeer been shooting matchlocks for well over40 years .Always use a proper Bandolier always when hunting I feel it is lot safer when loading in the woods or fields it is easier as well .Before running afield with your matchlock you will need to get familiar bonding if you will with your matchlock .especially a matchlock