Help with refinishing my muzzle crown

[WRustyLane]

ThumperJones Those are some nice tools for recrowning the muzzle. I noticed the 11 degree X 3/4 on the recrowning tool. I'll bet it shoots nice since the recrowning. What caliber is that?

 

[Gene L]

I cut the barrel down on my swede and crowned with a ball. It will hold 1/4" at 100 yards. I have done the same with every muzzle loader. Just hand work.

You have a ML pistol that will shot 1/4" at 100 yards? Pictures, please'

 

[sgeisz]

I cut the barrel down on my swede and crowned with a ball. It will hold 1/4" at 100 yards. I have done the same with every muzzle loader. Just hand work.

1/4" at 100 yards? Elaborate, please.

 

[Gene L]

Upon thinking on it, I think he was referring to a CF Swedish Mauser.

 

[sgeisz]

Upon thinking on it, I think he was referring to a CF Swedish Mauser.

I still want to see 1/4" at 100 yards, regardless of what it was.

 

[Desperate Lee]

Ruger #1 with Shilen stainless Stella bull barrel in 240 Weatherby Magnum. 100 yards cover 5 shots almost with a dime, in my younger days. Also the 20 power scope didn't hurt either. Wish sometimes I still had it.

 

[Juice Jaws]

You have a ML pistol that will shot 1/4" at 100 yards? Pictures, please'

What, you don't believe??

 

[Zonie]

For those who seem to have forgotten the rules:

Please do NOT talk about modern cartridge guns on this forum.

 

[M. De Land]

View attachment 6101 View attachment 6102 View attachment 6103

I use these tools from Brownells. You need a pilot to fit the bore for each size. I cut the pilots in my mini lathe. They are offered in a facing cut too to square the bore. Not cheap, but what is accuracy worth to you? They do last a long time from my experience. I use mine frequently and still on the first set.

This is an example of a poorly cut crown with chatter marks. The uneven-es is revealed by the shadow and the sharp edge has not been broken to the groove bottom.

 

[ThumperJones]

ThumperJones Those are some nice tools for recrowning the muzzle. I noticed the 11 degree X 3/4 on the recrowning tool. I'll bet it shoots nice since the recrowning. What caliber is that?

It's a cheap .36 cal percussion rifle. The crown was visibly off square and unfinished by a good bit. Went from 6" groups at 20 yards to 5 shots touching at 20 yards afterwards. I'm happy with it. Glad I was able to salvage it.

Before:

After:

 

[ThumperJones]

This is an example of a poorly cut crown with chatter marks. The uneven-es is revealed by the shadow and the sharp edge has not been broken to the groove bottom.

Thanks for that. I was able to turn a junk rifle into a very decent rifle with some hand tools and a little effort. Plenty good enough for me.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Nice job Thumper.

 

[Desperate Lee]

Zonie
Just comparing notes is all. Sorry.
DL

 

[45man]

I have built all of my muzzle loaders and used a ball to crown. I silver soldered a ball bearing to a rod and turned by hand with abrasive. Same with my Swede I customized, cut the barrel down. Crowned like my ML's. Just get the end flat first. A line of .410 shells at 100 will never be missed. I make my own molds and if you doubt accuracy, this is a shotgun shell at 100 yards from my revolver. Does not matter if a modern rifle or flint lock, same thing. You really can crown by hand. Abrasives work better then cutters that chatter. I won an IHMSA shoot long ago and needed shoot off settings. Shoot off is steel chickens at 200 meters. I set a cardboard chicken up and shot my single shot. I had two shots left from my .44 SBH. I shot them and they beat the single shot.

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks for that. I was able to turn a junk rifle into a very decent rifle with some hand tools and a little effort. Plenty good enough for me.

Not trying to be mean but direct. If one cuts through the manure and tells the truth about issues he turns out to be the better friend in the end. That crown is better than a buggered one but you have the tools to make it near perfect if you know the difference and now you do. Cut the crown perfectly flat and use the tool only to cut a chamfer to the groove bottoms then finish with sand paper on a sphere to break the edge. Your better off with a solid sphere or 45- 60 degree tapper lap than with your thumb when dressing the chamfer as the rigidness keeps you from rounding off the lead land end corners. Your thumb will work if the paper is doubled over enough to make it rather stiff.
I barrel all manor of fire arm regularly as trained in gun school on a lathe. I also use hand tools from Brownells that use barrel bushings and a T handle for perfect co-axial alignment. There is nothing magic about an eleven degree crown and I use it regularly on modern guns but most muzzle loaders are cut flat for muzzle patch cutting and only the very end is chamfered into the groove bottoms so that the patch knife can cut cleanly. Deep eleven degree crowns defeat this advantage.
Chatter marks look like hell, seldom are perfectly uniform and non broken crown edges to groove bottom tend to cut patch material when loading. They can work for a while but tend to wear unevenly eventually degrade accuracy.

 

[M. De Land]

Not trying to be mean but direct. If one cuts through the manure and tells the truth about issues he turns out to be the better friend in the end. That crown is better than a buggered one but you have the tools to make it near perfect if you know the difference and now you do. Cut the crown perfectly flat and use the tool only to cut a chamfer to the groove bottoms then finish with sand paper on a sphere to break the edge. Your better off with a solid sphere or 45- 60 degree tapper lap than with your thumb when dressing the chamfer as the rigidness keeps you from rounding off the lead land end corners. Your thumb will work if the paper is doubled over enough to make it rather stiff.
I barrel all manor of fire arm regularly as trained in gun school on a lathe. I also use hand tools from Brownells that use barrel bushings and a T handle for perfect co-axial alignment. There is nothing magic about an eleven degree crown and I use it regularly on modern guns but most muzzle loaders are cut flat for muzzle patch cutting and only the very end is chamfered into the groove bottoms so that the patch knife can cut cleanly. Deep eleven degree crowns defeat this advantage.
Chatter marks look like hell, seldom are perfectly uniform and non broken crown edges to groove bottom tend to cut patch material when loading. They can work for a while but tend to wear unevenly eventually degrade accuracy.

This is an example of a properly cut muzzle loading crown. Muzzle flat, chamfer cut evenly to bottom of grooves , edge broken with 320 grit sand paper. All corners are sharp , crisp and uniform.
Eleven degree muzzles came about from modern match rifle crowning and are not really very useful for muzzle loaders as one winds up with a shallow dish before he can cut deep enough to get to the bottom of the grooves. This deep cutting to get to groove bottom tends to set up chatter because of the amount of muzzle material that has to be removed to get depth. A 45 degree cutter is about right in my opinion.

 

[WRustyLane]

This is an example of a properly cut muzzle loading crown. Muzzle flat, chamfer cut evenly to bottom of grooves , edge broken with 320 grit sand paper. All corners are sharp , crisp and uniform.
Eleven degree muzzles came about from modern match rifle crowning and are not really very useful for muzzle loaders as one winds up with a shallow dish before he can cut deep enough to get to the bottom of the grooves. This deep cutting to get to groove bottom tends to set up chatter because of the amount of muzzle material that has to be removed to get depth. A 45 degree cutter is about right in my opinion.

That's some great information. I had always heard that accuracy depended on the degree of muzzle crown especially on modern guns. I did think that this held true for muzzle loaders as well. That 45 degree muzzle crown looks great. How's accuracy with that 45 degree crown? I think it does look better than the 11 degree in a previous post. Comparing photos I see the big dish in the end of the muzzle with the 11 degree crown. The 45 degree crown looks more aesthetically pleasing than the large dish look. In order to get to the groove a lot of material would have to be removed from the muzzle end resulting in the "dish" appearance.

 

[M. De Land]

That's some great information. I had always heard that accuracy depended on the degree of muzzle crown especially on modern guns. I did think that this held true for muzzle loaders as well. That 45 degree muzzle crown looks great. How's accuracy with that 45 degree crown? I think it does look better than the 11 degree in a previous post. Comparing photos I see the big dish in the end of the muzzle with the 11 degree crown. The 45 degree crown looks more aesthetically pleasing than the large dish look. In order to get to the groove a lot of material would have to be removed from the muzzle end resulting in the "dish" appearance.

Any reasonably degree of single plane crown taper will work as well as any other as long as it is uniform. Flat muzzles shoot just as well also but the rub comes in maintaining uniformity in land and groove at the bores end. Certain profiles protect and maintain this uniformity better than others. One of the reasons for the current eleven degree crown angle is that it protects the bores end from deformity as well as dissipating any lateral fouling build up.
It is thought in some circles that counter bore crowns reveal this problem of fouling build up that can effect accuracy potential of the barrel.
Actually I think ( but can't prove), that the current eleven degree angle thinking had it's origins in forcing cone angle in revolver barrels. The two most common forcing cone angles are 7 and 11 degrees. The 11 degree forcing cone makes lead revolver bullets shoot more accurately than does the 7 degree.

The flat muzzle crown is really about patch knife cutting but still needs the chamfer to protect the patch from land cutting at loading and to maintain the land and groove end, profile integrity.

 

[WRustyLane]

Any reasonably degree of single plane crown taper will work as well as any other as long as it is uniform. Flat muzzles shoot just as well also but the rub comes in maintaining uniformity in land and groove at the bores end. Certain profiles protect and maintain this uniformity better than others. One of the reasons for the current eleven degree crown angle is that it protects the bores end from deformity as well as dissipating any lateral fouling build up.
It is thought in some circles that counter bore crowns reveal this problem of fouling build up that can effect accuracy potential of the barrel.
Actually I think ( but can't prove), that the current eleven degree angle thinking had it's origins in forcing cone angle in revolver barrels. The two most common forcing cone angles are 7 and 11 degrees. The 11 degree forcing cone makes lead revolver bullets shoot more accurately than does the 7 degree.

The flat muzzle crown is really about patch knife cutting but still needs the chamfer to protect the patch from land cutting at loading and to maintain the land and groove end, profile integrity.

Thanks for clarifying this. I think I understand it a little more clearly now. I didn't know that about forcing cones in pistols, but I have heard about it somewhere, probably on another forum I belong to.