Help with Jäger Rifle .62 Loads

[Robby]

Ok good but what Lube?! Jow often clean the barrel in the test? Friends i was very said about the non funktion of my trying

I use a Balistol and water mix, about the consistency of spit. When I get to where I want to be I switch to mink oil to verify it for a hunting load. I don't swipe the bore between shots, the tight ball/patch combo is all the swiping I need. When I make my hunting load I do clean the gun in between shots to replicate the gun for hunting, clean, and cold barrel. Probably not necessary but thats' just the way I roll.
Is the barrel crowned?
Robby

 

[cositrike]

Dear Simon What about it ?. It looks brilliant to me ,There is a Vieneese maker Michael Wagner in Shumways booklet Page14 has a similar guard if dated 1703 Allway's appealed to me. Yours looks like it.s brass mounted that's a Viennees trait .( Most German ones seem iron mounted ) Left hand bloke got a right handed lock on Special ?. He won it in a shooting match ?. It was all they had in the shop & the customer didn't want to wait ?. Iv'e no idea .Ide live with it. Pity George is dead he would know if any one would . Any makers name ? . Looks a nice piece whatever .the reason .
Best wishes Rudyard

hi Rudyard. Just thought I’d show you as a matter of interest. This is the makers mark. No written name. It is actually iron mounted. I love it. Stay safe.Simon

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Jäger, I had to dig out my notes as I haven't shot it, them, in a while. First off, I would toss the pre-lubed patches.
I have used that barrel in a few jaggewehre, I use .025 pillow ticking for everything lubed with mink oil or a tallow / beeswax mix,, one load I used for hunting, was 110 gr. ff, .610 cast lead ball, another is 85 gr. ff, .600 cast lead ball, both are very accurate and more than adequate for deer sized game.
Good luck, enjoy the search!!!!
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Robby

Beautiful rifle! Did you build it, if so, build one for me!

 

[Rudyard]

hi Rudyard. Just thought I’d show you as a matter of interest. This is the makers mark. No written name. It is actually iron mounted. I love it. Stay safe.Simon
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Dear Simon the pipes & end cap look so shiny I took it for brass Ive no idea re the mark but suggests hunting horn & perhaps owners initials .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Robby]

Beautiful rifle! Did you build it, if so, build one for me!

Yes I did make that rifle and sorry, I only make them for family anymore. Thank you!!!
Robby

 

[Relic shooter]

Let's see your patches after you shoot?
Look for holes OR if the patches are all torn apart.
You have a new barrel and often they have burrs that damage patches and the patches then disintegrate when you shoot.
Burnishing a Flintlock Bore
LD

Good on you Dave tips like this greatly reduces frustration & increases the fun factor !

Lapping/burnishing the bore is almost always an excellent idea & something I do to 'all' new firearms including my revolvers !
I've had numerous originals with bores that had deep rifling & were pitted from breech to muzzle due to neglect that ended up being top performers.
Depending on severity after a good cleaning & lapping & burnishing with lapping compound , steel wool & other burning materials almost all produced excellent accuracy & loaded easy after some elbow grease.
Yes some bores accumulated more fowling at end of the day but they did not shred 'proper' patches or need to be cleaned between shots & produced excellent groups, trick was using the right non-petroleum lube, powder charge & patch & ball or bullet. I've seen many load way too much powder that creates excessive fowling, more is not better.
This practice of bore conditioning may draw some forum criticism but I've personally found that 'conditioning' of the bore has produced tighter groups for me with the right combination of ball-size & patch combo. Often fouling & accuracy problems are caused by not using a good quality tight-weaved pillow ticking that has not been pre-washed & properly lubed.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Yes I did make that rifle and sorry, I only make them for family anymore. Thank you!!!
Robby

I completely understand, I really didn't think you would, just kidding!

 

[waksupi]

As it happens I shot a 600 call ball with 20 thou ticking patch yesterday with 2& a half drams about 70 grains of Curtis & Harveys number 4 ( very old tins ) I got . At 55 yards it grouped but need alter the guessed at sights. Its a new rifle I made 28" barrel about one turn in 30" as it happened . maybe of interest .
Regards Rudyard

Whoa, wait a minute. Your barrel is 1-30"? That is for an elongated projectile, and not meant for round ball. Best results will be with a barrel of 1-60" to 1-72".

 

[Grenadier1758]

The rate of twist of 1 in 30 is consistent for a Jaeger rifle. These rifles often had a twist of one turn in the barrel length and still were very accurate on target. The consideration here is the depth of the grooves. Deep grooves with thick patches should be suitable and accurate. We should be looking for other problems.

Earlier @German Jäger was getting better results with a 0.600 ball wrapped in a 0.020 patch. Look at post #26. It was harder to load but the group was reasonable. Perhaps a thicker patch of 0.025 wrapped around a 0.595 ball would ease the loading.

I would be looking for thick patches and a good oil based patch lubricant. Perhaps 1 part Ballistol and 4 parts water. Of course mink oil is good too.

Hope the groups start to tighten up.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Waksupi generaly speaking you are correct but as Grenadier points out many original round ball rifles had the one in 30 or similar pitch . .& have known reused Martini Henry barrels shoot patched round ball with very good result. So we cant be too hard & fast if generally you are correct.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Relic shooter]

The rate of twist of 1 in 30 is consistent for a Jaeger rifle. These rifles often had a twist of one turn in the barrel length and still were very accurate on target. The consideration here is the depth of the grooves. Deep grooves with thick patches should be suitable and accurate. We should be looking for other problems.

Earlier @German Jäger was getting better results with a 0.600 ball wrapped in a 0.020 patch. Look at post #26. It was harder to load but the group was reasonable. Perhaps a thicker patch of 0.025 wrapped around a 0.595 ball would ease the loading.

I would be looking for thick patches and a good oil based patch lubricant. Perhaps 1 part Ballistol and 4 parts water. Of course mink oil is good too.

Hope the groups start to tighten up.

[B]Grenadier1758[/B] is correct, all of the Jaeger rifles I've owned have had faster twist rifling "but" they also have deeper rifling that is necessary to get a good grip on the patched ball. Naturally with deeper rifling it always requires a thicker patch to fill to fill & seal the groves.

 

[Rudyard]

I have a Prince Eugene's Regt c1800 same pitch , my new rifle had that pitch it was round blank ' blown out at F ship.' probably ex Montana Brls I had Getz swamp it its 28" same as the old rifle , both 20 bore as was a similler barrel plain oct but I swamped it . The pitch is much slower . I made both up to test the merits of both pitches . Nothing ground breaking but so far the slower pitch has been easier to use its 'After' the Fre'd Bickle in Shumways booklet , just grabbed me my tests are far from concluded & hardly matter but pertainant to this discussion at least .
Regards Rudyard

 

[waksupi]

Weren't the fast twist Jaegers generally loaded sans patch, with the ball driven down the barrel bare?

 

[Rifleman1776]

Weren't the fast twist Jaegers generally loaded sans patch, with the ball driven down the barrel bare?

Some were but it was not a common practice.

 

[waksupi]

With that fast of a twist speed, gyroscopic stability and conservation of angular momentum will be greatly affected by any imperfections. For best results, every ball will need to be weighed. That includes swagged balls, as they have a surprising amount of imperfections.

 

[Rudyard]

I made a short cheek stocked late' English lock' carbine . about 22" barrel it had /has a pitch of 1 in 16".pitch Jerry Cunningham kindly gave it me it had' Junk' written on it . But seeing an original piece in a booth that took my fancy & took drawings and later swamped the barrel & made this carbine its 58 cal probably from some long range toy Jerry liked the long range stuff .Though I think to bore it out & re cut its rifleing mostly to save weight . I carried it though these hills and it bowled wild goats well enough. It might have had' Trash' written on it, I made one with that once .In each case ide engrave 'Finest selected 5 $ Montana barrel reject' or some such in appreciation of the doner . Jerry is one of natures gentlemen a brilliant wit . The stock was a dense maple one of Bob Leplies that had a small crack so no one wanted it but I bought it and the small crack is now hidden underneath the tool box lid The original rifle had sling loops so I made them its the only rifle I ever used a sling too of this sort and the lock was just parts from the ever ammuseing Jim Chambers I think its one sans tumbler & its flint parts since the rifle is' English lock .with dog' If memory serves I think its parts he gave me for singing a song it got very boreing couped in a dusty booth all week . I was a bit of a' Booth hopper' at Friendship shoots but I have fond memories over about 16 years often twice a year . Anyway I digress . Ile see if I can post a photo later
Regards Rudyard

 

[Relic shooter]

Weren't the fast twist Jaegers generally loaded sans patch, with the ball driven down the barrel bare?

There may or may not be any debate on this but in my opinion barrels with deep rifling require patched round balls. The only exception are barrels like the Whitworth & rifles that shoot belted rounds, they use projectiles that are cast to closely fit the shape of the bore..
Not to say that where a rapid 2nd shot is necessary an oversize pure lead round bare ball could be swaged into the bore.

 

[waksupi]

I made a short cheek stocked late' English lock' carbine . about 22" barrel it had /has a pitch of 1 in 16".pitch Jerry Cunningham kindly gave it me it had' Junk' written on it . But seeing an original piece in a booth that took my fancy & took drawings and later swamped the barrel & made this carbine its 58 cal probably from some long range toy Jerry liked the long range stuff .Though I think to bore it out & re cut its rifleing mostly to save weight . I carried it though these hills and it bowled wild goats well enough. It might have had' Trash' written on it, I made one with that once .In each case ide engrave 'Finest selected 5 $ Montana barrel reject' or some such in appreciation of the doner . Jerry is one of natures gentlemen a brilliant wit . The stock was a dense maple one of Bob Leplies that had a small crack so no one wanted it but I bought it and the small crack is now hidden underneath the tool box lid The original rifle had sling loops so I made them its the only rifle I ever used a sling too of this sort and the lock was just parts from the ever ammuseing Jim Chambers I think its one sans tumbler & its flint parts since the rifle is' English lock .with dog' If memory serves I think its parts he gave me for singing a song it got very boreing couped in a dusty booth all week . I was a bit of a' Booth hopper' at Friendship shoots but I have fond memories over about 16 years often twice a year . Anyway I digress . Ile see if I can post a photo later
Regards Rudyard

Jerry and Harrison used to load up all the rejects on a trailer, and sell them at Friendship. The rejects were match winners, only having cosmetic flaws.

 

[Rudyard]

Jerry and Harrison used to load up all the rejects on a trailer, and sell them at Friendship. The rejects were match winners, only having cosmetic flaws.

You clearly know them I havnt been up in Kalispell for years I hope they are well pass on my regards I never had a bad barrel & I bought lots years ago . They wont know me as 'Rudyard ' just that English bloke who they knew at the F ship shoots Iv'e been married 22 years so that stopped the annual hemisphere swopping but ime still makeing guns Ime still useing up his specials there where a pair of taper oct 50 call smooth 39" or so brls I cut off the heavy end to restore two orig pistols and one off cut at 30" is now a Scots snaphance the other Ime working on today is on a matcthlock Petronel . Two others are long pieces like the ones in Hamilitons 'Colonial Frontier Guns' all ex Jerry & Harrison . Besides the carbine in the photoes its original was on some dealers wall opposit Ackermans booth not jernado what ever he called him self I had too much fun at F ship and really enjoyed their company & Jerrys wit .
Regards Rudyard

PS I have a photo of Harrison holding up the original rifle if i can find it

 

[Rudyard]

There may or may not be any debate on this but in my opinion barrels with deep rifling require patched round balls. The only exception are barrels like the Whitworth & rifles that shoot belted rounds, they use projectiles that are cast to closely fit the shape of the bore..
Not to say that where a rapid 2nd shot is necessary an oversize pure lead round bare ball could be swaged into the bore.

The Two grouves with belted ball had a patch I and some originally also used a felt wad on top of the powder not need to have a tight fit so loads easier .
Regards Rudyard