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Greendog094

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Very few markings.shows serial on barrel 24352 and a stamp 1/2 way visible on left sid and another on top Appears to be Damascus twist small bore shotgun? Very light weight
 

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I believe the stamp on your barrel is an ELG with a crown? I have a Kuirig/Zulu shotgun that was made around 1850 and was originally a flinter. I think these were used in the French/Indian War and then converted in Belgium to a shotgun breech that opens from the side. I can see that your is still a percussion though. I think they went from flint to percussion to shotgun shell side opener later on. I know there are more educated people on this forum that can help even more. I think the side opening cartridge breeches were made by Snider of Belgium.
 
Very few markings.shows serial on barrel 24352 and a stamp 1/2 way visible on left sid and another on top Appears to be Damascus twist small bore shotgun? Very light weight
I'd say early 1800s, Belgian made but it could be an earlier flint to percussion conversion. Looks like the stock may have been cut down to half stock at one time. The only Damascus barreled Belgians I can find are double barrel. It could well have been a build using what the owner had on hand and used as a barn gun. I could be wrong but the butt screams military to me which leads me to believe it was a home build/conversion.
Hopefully someone who has much more knowledge of these rifles will chime in as I'm mostly guessing here.
 
I believe the stamp on your barrel is an ELG with a crown? I have a Kuirig/Zulu shotgun that was made around 1850 and was originally a flinter. I think these were used in the French/Indian War and then converted in Belgium to a shotgun breech that opens from the side. I can see that your is still a percussion though. I think they went from flint to percussion to shotgun shell side opener later on. I know there are more educated people on this forum that can help even more. I think the side opening cartridge breeches were made by Snider of Belgium.
Thanks!will be interested in what others say also. My father collected several and I made the mistake of not discussing them with him before he passed a just would love to know the history/value of them I have a few more I will post in the future
 
Jacob Snider was an American, not a Belgian.

Jacob Snider (January 1, 1811 – October 25, 1866) was an American mechanical engineer and inventor. He invented and patented a method of converting existing muzzle-loading rifles into breech-loading rifles, notably the Snider-Enfield.

Originally from Montgomery, Georgia, Snider later moved to Philadelphia, but died in poverty in Kilburn, London, England while attempting to recover promised compensation from the British government. He was survived by his wife Angelina and several sons, and is buried in Kensal Green Cemetery, London.

Snider worked for the Pennsylvania Institute for the Blind, and in 1833, he produced the first raised print book in the United States. His method, which involved carving the letters into a sheet of copper by hand, was soon abandoned.

The very first image show the Perron stamp. This is a commemorative column in Liége, Belgium that has been part of the city landcape for well over 250 years and is applied in miniature form to EVERY firearm made and proofed in Liége - home of Belgian gunmaking, notably Fabrique Nationale [FN] home of John Moses Browning. The ELG is the stamp of the Liége proof house - it is the initials of Epréuve Liége. The form of the stamp dates this arm after 1854, but before 1892.
 
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The "back action lock" on the gun suggests it was made in the 1840's or later. Prior to that, most locks were the normal shaped type with the lockplate extending forward of the nipple or vent.

A agree with the others who say the proof mark is Belgian. The wood appears to be Beech wood which often has patches of light colored wood showing. (Beech wood doesn't take oil based stains well.)

The styling looks very much like a trade gun that was sold in Africa or South America.
 
Jacob Snider was an American, not a Belgian.

Jacob Snider (January 1, 1811 – October 25, 1866) was an American mechanical engineer and inventor. He invented and patented a method of converting existing muzzle-loading rifles into breech-loading rifles, notably the Snider-Enfield.

Originally from Montgomery, Georgia, Snider later moved to Philadelphia, but died in poverty in Kilburn, London, England while attempting to recover promised compensation from the British government. He was survived by his wife Angelina and several sons, and is buried in Kensal Green Cemetery, London.

Snider worked for the Pennsylvania Institute for the Blind, and in 1833, he produced the first raised print book in the United States. His method, which involved carving the letters into a sheet of copper by hand, was soon abandoned.

The very first image show the Perron stamp. This is a commemorative column in Liége, Belgium that has been part of the city landcape for well over 250 years and is applied in miniature form to EVERY firearm made and proofed in Liége - home of Belgian gunmaking, notably Fabrique Nationale [FN] home of John Moses Browning. The ELG is the stamp of the Liége proof house - it is the initials of Epréuve Liége. The form of the stamp dates this arm after 1854, but befor
 
Jacob Snider was an American, not a Belgian.

Jacob Snider (January 1, 1811 – October 25, 1866) was an American mechanical engineer and inventor. He invented and patented a method of converting existing muzzle-loading rifles into breech-loading rifles, notably the Snider-Enfield.

Originally from Montgomery, Georgia, Snider later moved to Philadelphia, but died in poverty in Kilburn, London, England while attempting to recover promised compensation from the British government. He was survived by his wife Angelina and several sons, and is buried in Kensal Green Cemetery, London.

Snider worked for the Pennsylvania Institute for the Blind, and in 1833, he produced the first raised print book in the United States. His method, which involved carving the letters into a sheet of copper by hand, was soon abandoned.

The very first image show the Perron stamp. This is a commemorative column in Liége, Belgium that has been part of the city landcape for well over 250 years and is applied in miniature form to EVERY firearm made and proofed in Liége - home of Belgian gunmaking, notably Fabrique Nationale [FN] home of John Moses Browning. The ELG is the stamp of the Liége proof house - it is the initials of Epréuve Liége. The form of the stamp dates this arm after 1854, but before 1892.
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Jacob Snider was an American, not a Belgian.

Jacob Snider (January 1, 1811 – October 25, 1866) was an American mechanical engineer and inventor. He invented and patented a method of converting existing muzzle-loading rifles into breech-loading rifles, notably the Snider-Enfield.

Originally from Montgomery, Georgia, Snider later moved to Philadelphia, but died in poverty in Kilburn, London, England while attempting to recover promised compensation from the British government. He was survived by his wife Angelina and several sons, and is buried in Kensal Green Cemetery, London.

Snider worked for the Pennsylvania Institute for the Blind, and in 1833, he produced the first raised print book in the United States. His method, which involved carving the letters into a sheet of copper by hand, was soon abandoned.

The very first image show the Perron stamp. This is a commemorative column in Liége, Belgium that has been part of the city landcape for well over 250 years and is applied in miniature form to EVERY firearm made and proofed in Liége - home of Belgian gunmaking, notably Fabrique Nationale [FN] home of John Moses Browning. The ELG is the stamp of the Liége proof house - it is the initials of Epréuve Liége. The form of the stamp dates this arm after 1854, but before 1892.
Thanks for the very informative reply! I can use that info toward my KUIRIG belgium shotgun.
 
it looks like a home made shot gun. made from what was at one time an original military musket.
 
Thanks TFoley for the very informative article. I tried to reply on my 2 above attemps, but I screwed up. Sorry Zonie! As I above stated I inherited an 1850-1879? Belgium, Snider breech with all of the hallmarks.
 
Thanks TFoley for the very informative article. I tried to reply on my 2 above attemps, but I screwed up. Sorry Zonie! As I above stated I inherited an 1850-1879? Belgium, Snider breech with all of the hallmarks.

Although Mr Snider was successful in selling his conversion ideas to the British in order to convert their P53 rifles and rifled muskets to b*e*c*l*a*e*r*, he was much copied by the prolific Belgian gun-makers of the time for the military trade in other nations where gun-making was not so well-advanced.

As such, the Snider was the subject of substantial imitation, in both approved and questionable forms, including the Nepalese Snider, which was a nearly exact copy, the Dutch Snider, Danish Naval Snider, and the "unauthorised" adaptations of the French Tabatière and Russian Krnka.

There were also "Trade Pattern" Snider–Enfields, being Snider–Enfields made for private purchase by various English gun-makers. These were often intended for sale to members of volunteer military units, or simply to anyone who might wish to purchase a rifle.

Undoubtedly, your Belgian-made Snider is not a very unusual arm, but it is, nevertheless, as very interesting example of the late 19th C arms trade. Please note, also, that it IS a breechloader, and as such, falls outside the remit of this forum.
 
Sorry moderators for my "unmentionable" post. I didn't think it violated rules because it was "born" a muzzle loader.
 
Let's quit discussing the Snider conversion and stick to talking about the gun that was originally posted in post #1 which is not a cartridge gun.
 
Belgium cheap gun not been anything military . No French & Indian war !! or flint conversion just cheap sort of 410 predisessor . How Snider got in is unclear . I read he was a Dutch wine merchant living in America . I own a Danish naval rim fire Snider converted from a Slesvig Holstien' Tige' muzzle loader on Brunswick lines, Got up in Liege for the Prussian backed Slesvic Holstieners made 1853 converted 1866 nice Dalhoff sight but now an unmentionable ( serial number 999 or maybe 666 ).

Reminds me of the joke with a boating pond keeper calling out "Come in number 9 your time is up !' His assistant buts in "We don't have a number nine " The Keeper thinks about that then shoots "Number 6 are you in trouble ?! " Rudyard
 
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