Help id Dog Head Rifle

[Akluthier]

First let me say I’m a new member as well as new to Black Powder and Percussion guns. I am an avid outdoorsman and sportsman for the past 50 years with my Dad giving me my first gun when I was 14 along with my first bird dog at 15.
This rifle is owned by a good friend of mine whom it was passed down from his father who purchased the gun from a shop near London in 1951. He showed it to me as I was very interested in the Dog head carvings in the forearm as well as the workmanship in general. Since I build acoustic guitars and have handled many old Martin and Gibsons, the ornate details on such an old firearm is amazing.
I’m attempting to gather as much information on this rifle as I can and thought I could just start Googling and searching the web and it would be easy peasy. Wrong. There are sooo many makers during the early and mid 19th Century and obviously I need the help of you experts and professionals.

Here’s what I’ve found or know:
Gun Length - 44 ½” Barrel – 28 5/8” Wt - 7.6 lbs
Caliber - 60 cal (15.4 mm / .605” - measured) Appears to also have 8 riflings down the barrel

I am assuming some missing letters and could be wrong however I believe the name on the lock plate reads:
John Hanton & Son Patent (in my research I can’t find anything on a gun maker with this name? ) I can't read the Gold Inlay on top of barrel ???

Barrel proof marks shown are on the bottom of the barrel. Note the one also appears to have a 44 about an inch above it ??

In my research I did find a similar percussion rifle with same “Dog’s Head” forearm, but this was about the only similarity. Described as: ORNATE SWISS PERCUSSION HEAVY BARREL SCHUTZEN RIFLE BY CASIMIR WEBER DATED 1853.

Also the name on the barrel and name from the auction detail is not the same?? Here’s the link to that gun. ORNATE SWISS PERCUSSION HEAVY BARREL SCHUTZEN RIFLE BY CASIMIR WEBER DATED 1853.

My friend took it once to a gun show in Spokane a few years ago and the best they could come up with was a German hunting rifle, mid 19th Century.?? I’ve got many more detailed photo’s and only posted these due to the limitations of your forum and can provide anything else required as I still have the gun in possession.

NOTE: I thought I could post 12 photos but only 10 allowed so it dropped the two barrel proof marks. I can post these and more if needed later..

Thanks in advance for all and anything you can help with to identify this beauty.
Rick

 

[Blaze]

What a nice rifle, from limited knowledge on weapon looks like a Jeager style rifle that many would be proud to call their own.
Good luck.

 

[dragnetbill]

First let me say I’m a new member as well as new to Black Powder and Percussion guns. I am an avid outdoorsman and sportsman for the past 50 years with my Dad giving me my first gun when I was 14 along with my first bird dog at 15.
This rifle is owned by a good friend of mine whom it was passed down from his father who purchased the gun from a shop near London in 1951. He showed it to me as I was very interested in the Dog head carvings in the forearm as well as the workmanship in general. Since I build acoustic guitars and have handled many old Martin and Gibsons, the ornate details on such an old firearm is amazing.
I’m attempting to gather as much information on this rifle as I can and thought I could just start Googling and searching the web and it would be easy peasy. Wrong. There are sooo many makers during the early and mid 19th Century and obviously I need the help of you experts and professionals.

Here’s what I’ve found or know:
Gun Length - 44 ½” Barrel – 28 5/8” Wt - 7.6 lbs
Caliber - 60 cal (15.4 mm / .605” - measured) Appears to also have 8 riflings down the barrel

I am assuming some missing letters and could be wrong however I believe the name on the lock plate reads:
John Hanton & Son Patent (in my research I can’t find anything on a gun maker with this name? ) I can't read the Gold Inlay on top of barrel ???

Barrel proof marks shown are on the bottom of the barrel. Note the one also appears to have a 44 about an inch above it ??

In my research I did find a similar percussion rifle with same “Dog’s Head” forearm, but this was about the only similarity. Described as: ORNATE SWISS PERCUSSION HEAVY BARREL SCHUTZEN RIFLE BY CASIMIR WEBER DATED 1853.

Also the name on the barrel and name from the auction detail is not the same?? Here’s the link to that gun. ORNATE SWISS PERCUSSION HEAVY BARREL SCHUTZEN RIFLE BY CASIMIR WEBER DATED 1853.

My friend took it once to a gun show in Spokane a few years ago and the best they could come up with was a German hunting rifle, mid 19th Century.?? I’ve got many more detailed photo’s and only posted these due to the limitations of your forum and can provide anything else required as I still have the gun in possession.

NOTE: I thought I could post 12 photos but only 10 allowed so it dropped the two barrel proof marks. I can post these and more if needed later..

Thanks in advance for all and anything you can help with to identify this beauty.
Rick

I am no expert, but, I believe that makers mark on the lock may be John Manton & Son; London gunsmiths of the period. I am sure that those with much greater knowledge of these guns will eventually see you post and respond.

 

[TFoley]

OP needs putting in the appropriate section - identification of firearms.

 

[TFoley]

The name you seek is that of John Manton. He was a VERY famous gun-maker in London. I note that you have also posted this interesting rifle over on muzzeloadingforum.com. Between there and here I'm sure you find the answers you are looking for.

Your expert opined - '...best they could come up with was a German hunting rifle, mid 19th Century.??'

I agree 100%.

The 'Germanic' appearance comes from the style of arm - like a stocky German/Swiss Jaeger rifle of the mid-19th C as much from the distinctly Germanic carved trigger guard, a fairly common feature on German/Austrian/Swiss-made guns. Often made of horn as well as wood, and these days, very fragile.

The overly-ornate style of stock carving and OTT decoration is also typical of Germanic taste - still is, in some quarters.

The large calibre you mentioned is also typical - particularly for driven game like boar hunting - this rifle, short and handy, would be pure murder in the hands of a skilled marksman. The single butt-mounted sling swivel is also very Germanic. The other end of the sling is attached by a simple loop to the barrel.

The inlayed gold on the barrel reads xxxxxx in Weimar, so the English Manton percussion lock was imported for use on this lovely Germanic Jaeger-style rifle.

Examination of the proof marks will reveal a lot more.

 

[Akluthier]

What a nice rifle, from limited knowledge on weapon looks like a Jeager style rifle that many would be proud to call their own.
Good luck.

Thanks so much... I too wish it was mine as the more I research these the more I want to fire one!

 

[TFoley]

Whinemeal, take a look at Balasz Németh (capandball on Youtube) to see HIS similar rifle in use...

 

[TFoley]

The lines you see in the photos in your post on the other forum are called witness marks, and are used to line up the barrel and breech during assembly. The other mark appears to be a stylised Perron, a symbol applied to ALL Belgian-made arms since around 1672 - 1810 when it was dropped as the sole proof stamp. It was re-adopted in 1853 and is still in use today. This is what it usually looks like - in somewhat simplified format, given the sizes -

Your barrel, however, lacks all the other usual stamps....although there IS something that looks like 44. Are there any other marks there? Right now it looks as though your gun was assembled from a collection of components - not unusual, but including an English lock and a Belgian-made barrel and breeching. The name on the barrel may therefore be that of the vendor, not necessarily the maker. Again, this was commonplace.

There are LOTS of stamps missing here. The underneath of that barrel should be heaving with stamps.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Hunting thru' my 1967 copy of THE MANTONS by Keith Neal and David Back (cost me £10.00) The lock plate appears to be late 1700/early 1800s And gives the impression it is likely a flint conversion.At that time most John Manton plates were engraved in Roman Capitals or Gothic not Script. Script appears about 1825. This plate is very similar to several locks of 1785/1790 particularly the shape of the safety but without seeing the inside, ident. is even more difficult. Does the plate have a Number engraved on the width of the top edge behind the flash shield? Seems unusual for MANTON to be exporting dismounted locks to anywhere.. This lock may have been salvaged from an earlier gun that was derelict and scrapped. OLD DOG..

 

[TFoley]

Note to readers - there are a number of other photographs over on gunboards.com BP section. I am also looking at them. They need to be here.

What I'm REALLY trying hard to see, and not seeing, are ANY other stamps on this barrel.

None, apart from the tiny numbers down near the breech end.

There are a number of anomalies present.

1. There is only ONE proof stamp = the Perron. Proof with one stamp - this one - dates from 1672 to 1810, when it became the principal, but not the sole, proof stamp. This absence dates the barrel to before 1810.

2 Percussion arms in general did not become used until the late 1830's - early 40's.

3. It is, however, undeniably a hooked-breech percussion action barrel - there are no signs of it having been a flintlock. However, the breech shows clear evidence of being made from a different material than the barrel - making it into a percussion arm in place of the flintlock.

It might therefore be a bitsa, made up of an old barrel with new breeching and a 'found' lock. I therefore agree with Greenswlde.

My take?

Itsa bitsa.

And BTW, I'm still waiting for the real experts to appear here.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Thanks Tom, I am only a User, Restorer and Maker of F/Ls and other M/ls.As you say "Let's see what the Experts come up with". One or two of my French cocked flint locks kicking about the world but nowhere as many as Rudyard who made Mike Brooks's first flint gun and nowhere near as skillful..OLD DOG..

 

[TFoley]

The probability of it being a made-up piece in no way detracts from its great beauty as a work of firearms art. It is indisputably of its time and therefore a thing to be treasured in all respects.

Friend Németh has no qualms about shooting HIS Baader hunting rifle, and shooting this too would make a fine article on youtube.

 

[TFoley]

Thanks Tom, I am only a User, Restorer and Maker of F/Ls and other M/ls.As you say "Let's see what the Experts come up with". One or two of my French cocked flint locks kicking about the world but nowhere as many as Rudyard who made Mike Brooks's first flint gun and nowhere near as skillful..OLD DOG..

Sir, I hope that you don't imagine that in mentioning the lack of experts that I was in any way impugning your reputation here. Nothing could be less than the truth, and if it came over like that, then that was no my intention in any way, and I apologise for it.

 

[Akluthier]

Note to readers - there are a number of other photographs over on gunboards.com BP section. I am also looking at them. They need to be here.

I apologize for not keeping up with this thread as I've obviously made the mistake of posting this on two Message boards thinking that two would be better than one. It didn't appear to me at the time that most of you would be associated with both, but looking back why would you not. I will attempt to keep photos mirrored on both. Here are the two detailed proofs that I've found as well as more barrel photos.
Thanks again for the wonderful information.
Rick

 

[TFoley]

I'm interested in the number 44 I can just make on on image #1 - any chance of a close up in that area?

 

[Akluthier]

I'm interested in the number 44 I can just make on on image #1 - any chance of a close up in that area?

I am working on getting a better look at that too. Give me a few minutes and I'll post more photos.

 

[Akluthier]

Ok here are a couple more closeups of the 44. I did a few with my HD Nikon and the a couple with my IphoneX which surprisingly can pull details pretty good.
Note: As I was shooting with the Iphone I could swear I was seeing a script letter nearby and inline with the 44 but don't really see it now on the PC ?? hope these help.
Rick

 

[Akluthier]

Does the plate have a Number engraved on the width of the top edge behind the flash shield?

I looked hard for more numbers and letter engravings all around the lock, side and top plates but see nothing. I've take more details of these areas and maybe you will see what I am not.
Rick

 

[Akluthier]

The one thing I keep going back on is the rifle sold on GunsInternational.com site which has almost the exact dog carved forearm. Would this possibly be the same maker/builder or was it common to "copy/duplicate" carvings of others?
Just a thought as there are eerie resemblance's to my gun.

Here is a couple pics of the other gun...

ORNATE SWISS PERCUSSION HEAVY BARREL SCHUTZEN RIFLE BY CASIMIR WEBER DATED 1853.

 

[Rudyard]

I think Greenswld observations are on the money, Older lock reused & Liege proofs . What John Mantons particular patentable improuvement was is anyone's guess might have been some Tube lock or early percussion ofrsuper late flint refinement . Like he says look up the serial number of the lock .Rifle might be a bit of a 'bitsa' but nothing wrong in that. Perhaps a bit ' gingerbread' but that suited continental tastes .What Ide like to see is the entire lock might give a clue as that what it started off as .
Regards Rudyard