Has Anyone Ever Bought A Lemon?

[necchi]

If you've ever bought a black powder gun that was a lemon

You mean a "New" gun? Nope. I guess I bought a new 54 fast twist/shallow groove "carbine" model from Cabelas and brought it back a week later, I just couldn't get it to shoot the things it wasn't made to shoot. It wasn't really a lemon,, just not my gig to shoot those modern projectiles.

Otherwise I enjoy buying other folks "lemons",, the ones that they "just can't get to shoot right".
Usually it's a simple mater of actually cleaning the factory packing grease off the lock and trigger internals and giving them some fresh oil, and/or cleaning the bore of the carbon fouling left because they shot it without cleaning and there's that nasty tar caking in the bore.
(BoreButter fouling is very common)
You learn a few tricks along the way.
The bore is the biggest issue, if it's not a rusted mess, it can usually be salvaged.
Look for buggered up screw heads @ the lock plate and trigger mounts,, if their mashed-up, it means someone had a gorilla hand and they could have actually crushed the wood over-tightening. Minor bedding issues can be easily repaired with epoxy strengthening or adding wood/spacers.
Pipe wrench marks on the barrel/breach are common,, again,, look inside the barrel at the bore condition.

T/C's and Lyman/Investarms -- Traditions/CVA each have their own commonly ignored or typical error type issues. And most of them are, have been or can be addressed in the Gun Builders section of this forum.

The biggest deal,, look inside the bore - with a light,, a $2 bobber light dropped down there can tell ya a lot!

 

[Carbon 6]

I hunt for them. Often as not someone else's "lemon" is in fact just a gun that's been mismanaged. If the guy didn't do much damage in his ignorance, a little cleaning and maintenance can reveal a treasure. My favorite "lemons" are the ones that had their barrels seasoned and are eventually "shot out." Shoot.... A good cleaning with brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner gets rid of all that useless "seasoning" and reveals nice shiny rifling beneath it. Last one wasn't a whole rifle. A guy just gave me his shot out barrel when he ordered a new replacement. Thanks bud!

Lemonade

 

[SDSmlf]

View attachment 3132 View attachment 3132

Purchased a muzzleloader ‘lemon’ in the late 70s. The two piece stock Kentucky Rifle (percussion) kit by CVA. It was a complete disaster. Holes were misaligned (pin holes between the two piece stock for example), oversized and off location. Dovetails were oversized and crooked. There were lock problems. The hammer was nowhere near to striking the nipple. A long list of issues. A good example of an early Dukar and their problems.

Wrote a long letter to CVA customer service with detailed sketches of all areas of concern. Actually used the word lemon in my letter. They responded rather quickly with an offer of a new kit or a completely assembled gun. Took the assembled gun. Turned out to be quite a shooter and it still sits in a safe at a buddy’s house. It has been the first muzzleloader for each of his two boys.

Soon after receiving the replacement gun I went to a sportsmen’s show in town. Introduced myself to the CVA rep who happened to be in attendance (they were a real American company then) and we talked about the issues I had and thanked him for what CVA did. The rep told me to come back before I left the show. When I returned before heading home he handed me a new rifle from their display, just like the one I had recently received and he told me to keep it. He wanted me to know they stood behind their products. That gun sits in the safe I unfired to this day. Just never got around to shooting it. Keep file folders on all my guns. Believe the letter from CVA is filed there.

Here is the letter from CVA documenting their response to my ‘lemon’ muzzleloader problem. Lesson of documenting my issues with manufacturers has served me well over the years.

 

[Dr5x]

Back when I had money I bought a flintlock from the Hawken Shop in St. Louis.
To begin with the flintlock itself would not spark enough to fire the charge. I replaced the lock with a brand new Silver lock which did cause a nice rapid ignition. Then I learned that it was hitting far to the right of point of aim , So far off it was beyond adjustment. I finally gave to a reverend down in Florida who was looking for a rifle give to a young man in his congregation. He found the inaccuracy was caused by avery small [iece of metal at the muzzle that was causing the deflection.
He got it performing rather well but then the stock neatly broke in two at the wist.
It was a product of a company called Richland Arms..
It was a very educational experience. Oddly, thinking back, it never occurred to me to return it to the Hawken shop.

Dutch Schoultz

No, do your research and find a reputable builder and ask for references, ask to see their work and question the parts to be used and where they are coming from, ask if any of the work is farmed out. I usually do not take chances on used weapons of any type. The most recent was a R.O.A. and it turned out to be excellent, even at the price I paid if it was in poor condition it would of been parted out to recover the cost. Be sure if you buy a used weapon un seen that the seller has a return policy. The best advise I give a person do not impulse buy.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I received a CVA .50 caliber Hawken style percussion rifle from 1987. It had a 1:60" ROT but would not shoot a PRB load. I tried from 40-120 grains of 3 different powders with 5 different patch thicknesses and several lubes, 3 different balls. It would hit the target but never did better than 6" group at 50-yards. Cleaned it with different solutions, scrubbed, used a bore scope to see nothing that stood out. I wanted it to be a PRB shooter. After burning through darn near $1000 worth of components over a years times it did not get any better. I finally had it turned into a .54 caliber 1:60" ROT. I loaded my go-to combo with PRB and it is a tack driver. I never did figure why in 50 caliber it did not like PRB's. I have many other rifles and I have been able to figure out a satisfactory load within 4 or 5 combos and 1 or 2 days at the range. The worst of them is 2" groups at 50 and the better rifles are one-holers. My only conclusion was that this particular barrel was a lemon.

 

[Rifleman1776]

My first ml rifle was a CVA 'kentucky' about 1970. It was a total hunka junka. Two piece stock that didn't fit right; something in the bore that made loading almost impossible; weak flintlock mainspring; soft frizzen that didn't like to spark, and on and on. Only upside, I learned a lot by fiddling with that rifle trying to get it to work. Fer'instance: scraping out the lock inlet so the lock would work; stoning the lock parts, again, so they would (sorta) work; trying to harden the frizzen face without knowing what I was doing, etc. Finally gave up and sold it.

 

[Carbon 6]

I received a CVA .50 caliber Hawken style percussion rifle from 1987. It had a 1:60" ROT ................ I finally had it turned into a .54 caliber 1:60".

Curious, who did you find that would re-bore a barrel with a CVA patent breech design ?

 

[Sparkitoff]

Fayetteville Gunworks in Fayetteville, N.C. The old guy was a big black powder shooter. He passed away in around 1997 or I'd still go there. He made a custom mold to produce .58 conicals for my Zouave and would sell them to me for 8 for $1.00 back then.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

Well, I can't say that I've bought lemons (that's right, plural!!) in the sense that the weapons have mechanical issues but I did buy them somewhat impulsively without doing enough research.
I bought a Fusil De Chasse from Veteran Arms and paid $850 and waited just about 5 months for it.
Its an Indian musket and few good things are said about them on the forum.
I bought it for a BP deer hunt that I had coming up and when it looked like it wasn't going to show I looked around on line and found a slightly used (only 20 rounds out of it Pedersoli Blue Ridge rifle in .50 cal.
I paid $500 but got so many dang extras (including both percussion and flint locks, all kinds of ball and conicals, caps,3lbs of powder, CVA horn and shooting bag, cleaning brushes and jags and a Lyman Plains pistol that was missing the ram rod rib and thimbles) that after I sold them all off I ended paying $150 for the rifle.
However, It doesn't fit the persona of a NY frontiersman from 1760-70s era so that's where I guess I got "lemons"

 

[Eutycus]

I guess I've been lucky all but one of my guns are pretty good shooters. The one exception is a small CVA derringer which dont fire all the time. But I just may have it figured out as to why it wont go bang. Thats some of the fun of this hobby. Taking a " junker" and doing some ametuer gunsmithing on it.Then making a keeper out of it. Its taken as sort of a challenge, I guess.

 

[crankshaft]

I never bought a lemon as far as guns.
However...at gun shows, those vendors are the biggest bunch of weasels ever. I was Shafted as far as accoutrements.
Ha Ha. I once bought a bag of steal ball bearings listed as .45 lead, well they were roundballs.
A scale that was broken, it looked good at first inspection.
Other stuff that was later found broken.
Inspect Very Very Carefully. Very.

 

[arcticap]

I had this one CVA .50 Bobcat that was purchased brand new at Walmart that had about a 20 lb. trigger pull,
It was so heavy that it made my trigger finger hurt.
I sent it to CVA and they lightened it up the trigger considerably but it was still on the stiff side.
The recoil from shooting it with Buffalo Ball-ets would hurt my shoulder so I put a big bag of BB's inside the hollow stock which made the butt end too unbalanced.
The semi-buckhorn rear sight was too open and required too much estimation for target shooting so I had a new adjustable rear sight installed.
And the gun had a lot of hang fires which installing a new CVA Perfect Nipple didn't solve.
It probably would have ignited better with real black powder.
But enough was enough so I took the BB's out of the stock and traded it in at a gun shop for $75 in credit.

 

[hanshi]

Back in the early 1970s, I bought a "Wesson" style rifle in .45. Before I got a chance to shoot it I slowly began to realize something about it wasn't right. Then it dawned on me that the bore was crooked; one side of the muzzle was thinner than the other.

The other was a nice Pedersoli Super Cub. It was a very attractive rifle, accurate as heck and handy in the bush. But the flint lock on the gun might spark 3-4 times and changing flints never helped. I eventually got a percussion lock for it and killed lots of deer along with enjoying that nice rifle. I would switch out the locks depending on how I felt but the flint never improved. Still, I did manage to kill 2 deer with the flint lock installed; but both times I had to fire it twice to get ignition. Surprisingly, the rifle, wearing the flint, killed one of the two deer that were my farthest shots; something over 100 yards. So the rifle was great but the lock was a disaster.

 

[PluggedNickel]

Post removed by OP!

 

[PluggedNickel]

My appologies, I see this thread was under general muzzle loading. I can remove the previous post. Sorry about that. I tend to forget this forum is almost entirely about ML's.

 

[Rum River]

First muzzleloader was a "very" used T/C .50 percussion Hawken. After a few pounds of powder plus various projectile combinations the only thing that shot well to 100 yards was a heavy minie ball design from TOTW. By the time I reached a powder level to reliably expand the hollow base the recoil was good and plenty. Eventually I got smart enough to drop a bore light in. The rifling was so washed out it looked like someone had tried to 'clean' it with something on a drill. Like a steel brush, or a brake hone, or a drill bit, or 80 grit valve grinding compound imbedded into razor blades, or - you get the idea. Still have it, cuz I killed my first muzzleloader deer with it. At 50 yards or less it's a plinker rifle for new shooters.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I bought a Traditions Long Rifle with the information that read, reads today,
"This historically accurate rifle, holder of the enviable status of “authentic for re-enactment use” from the American Revolutionary Brigade, recreates the finest features of the classic long rifles. It features a full-length walnut stock with cheekpiece, solid brass patch box, stock inlay ornamentation and toe plate. Double-set triggers. Adjustable primitive style rear sight. Custom detailing throughout, without custom cost."
So the lock was small, and fragile, and damaged upon arrival. The rear sight wasn't authentic, and OH, the "American Revolutionary Brigade" doesn't exist..., might be "The Brigade of the American Revolution", but they've used this ad description for years and haven't bothered to correct the error, so....,

LD

 

[azmntman]

As I have posted (too) many time before I have a .36 Bobcat that would NOT group. I'm talking 3-4 inch off a rest at 25 yds. After 15 years and 15K combos of patch material, ball size, lubes, caps powder and even different brands of chew I was ready to send off to Hoyt for a bore out to .380 (a good excuse to acquire a .36 navy). Well after the last "last try" I forgot my patch material and had only some ridiculously thin ticking I keep in the bag to wipe the hands on. Rather than go back w/o shooting I grabbed the ticking, ripped a strip, opened a 15yrs old tube of pine scented bore butter and tried to apply to the strip, it "globbed out" (maybe 1/8 of the tube?) and went all over everything. So I loaded up 25 gr of Blk MZ, a button wad, the thinner than thin patch (soaked with old lube) and the ball. Off the tail gate (Couldn't get the corolla as deep in the woods as I needed per archery deer season and campers every 150 yds til the road got rough) I got a 1" group. Repeated it next time out, daughter hit a bullseye with it last time out (then of course it was retired w/o me besting her).

So what I thought was a lemon was not. Just likes an insane combo. I mean loose! No resistance at all when loading. I would have never though to go that thin on patch material. I had tried a supper tight load I needed to "persuade" down the bore with a mallet). This spring I'll get it out and try a bit of different THIN material, ball size, powders and the Dutch System patching and see if I can clover leaf (which I believe any gun should do at 25 yds).

 

[Hawgeye]

I bought a "semi-custom" rifle off the internet for a good price. Word to the wise, don't pay good money for something you can't shoulder. I paid the equivalent of the cost of the parts. Rifle looked good in the pictures. Resembled a Dickert as far as architecture and style goes. I got the rifle in January in the middle of a cold spell. Didn't shoot it for a month. First range trip had multiple failures to fire and when it did fire it shot way right.Took it home and pulled the barrel and touch hole liner. The liner was set into the breech plug with at least 3/8" of barrel threads visible. It was obviously never breeched correctly. The ramrod thimbles were set too close to the barrel pins so that the tails of the thimbles were notched to allow the pins to pass through. The barrel was never indexed for runout and was 90 degrees off. That explains the right drift of POI. The lower lock screw was drilled into the ramrod channel, on and on. Small mistakes that compound a lot of others. Make a long story short, I enlarged the hole in the breech-plug enough to get consistent ignition, redid the woodwork to refine the look and reduce he weight, re-inlet the trigger and trigger guard, set the rear sight way left and the front way right. Probably 60 or 70 hours of my time. Valuable lesson learned. I won't make that mistake again.

 

[towgunner11h]

I waa given a Hawken replica as a sort of joke- I say “sort of” because it was a rust bucket- fired in the mid 1980s and never cleaned. It was one of those nice CVA Mountain Rifles in .58. After inspection, and some bore lapping and re- crowning, it is one of the most accurate muzzle loaders that I own. But I think the previous owner knew it was a gem in the rough. And despite the slow twist, it is also very accurate with the Minies.
ETA: It was gifted to me in 1999.