Hard times for BP shooters

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Nice try. But this is what I mean by cherry-picking and not paying attention to details. I'll grant you that the whole Hazmat approach in terms of "compatibility classes" is confusing to the average reader, but you should at least look at all that they have to say about smokeless powder (and the compatibility classes it falls in). As I've mentioned previously, confusion will result when something is talked about in one place in terms of its function (purpose) and in another place in terms of its chemistry and physics. If you aren't up to managing those distinctions, you shouldn't be playing this game. You apparently think that if something is a propellant, then it can't be an explosive, or if it's an explosive then it can't be a propellant. But you really need to rethink that view. Explosives, indeed, can (and are) used to propel things. :)

Here is a direct quote from the Code of Federal Regulations (in Subpart F, section 172.504, clause (g), which is describing requirements on transporting and labeling "hazardous material":

"For shipments of Class 1 (explosive materials) by aircraft or vessel, the applicable compatibility group letter must be displayed on the placards, or labels when applicable, required by this section. ... (blah, blah, blah) ...​
Explosive article means an article containing an explosive substance; examples include a detonator, flare, primer or fuse. Explosive substance means a substance contained in a packaging that is not contained in an article; examples include black powder and smokeless powder. "​

So yeah, smokeless powder is a propellant (that's its usual function, except when you put it in something like a pipe bomb), but in terms of its chemical and physical properties and behavior, it's an EXPLOSIVE (substance).

Now please get over it, and stop insisting that smokeless powder isn't an explosive.
Stop the cherry picking yourself, and stop insisting that smokeless powder is classified THE SAME as black. IT IS NOT. There is a reason for different classifications for HAZMAT shipments. A flammable classification IS NOT the same as an explosive classification. As far as your claim that black powder has the same classification as other explosives - that is false also. Hold a match to a pile of BP and it burns - NOT explodes. By your definition, gasoline and high pressure steam should be classified as an explosive as well - both can be made to explode.
 

stikshooter

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When we get into regulatory minutiae we are all breaking some law every day. We can all be prosecuted for something. The key is to not be a problem to law enforcement or the regulatory powers. Keep a low profile and shut up. If questioned be very nice. Be compliant with whatever they say. If you act out you will have problems.
And fight the urge to engage in threads like (THESE)
 
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... stop insisting that smokeless powder is classified THE SAME as black. IT IS NOT.
Never said this and in fact gave explicit examples where it's not.

Nameless Hunter said:
As far as your claim that black powder has the same classification as other explosives - that is false also.
Never said that. Gave examples where it's not.

Nameless Hunter said:
Hold a match to a pile of BP and it burns - NOT explodes.
At this point you're spinning in circles. I thought you've been saying that BP is an explosive all along. Certainly you've been saying this in previous postings. Did you mean "smokeless powder" here instead of BP? Or can't you keep them straight?

But this has nothing to do with its classification as an explosive. And it doesn't even come close to addressing or being consistent with what you want to say is the difference between black and smokeless powders. At this point, I can't tell whether you think BP is an explosive or not, and whether you think smokeless powder is an explosive or not. You seem to have chased your tail so much that now you've got the two of them totally confused. Luckily, what you think doesn't matter, and the distinctions and classifications are very clearly drawn in the ATF, the literature of chemistry and physics, and the HAZMAT regulations and classifications that YOU originally introduced.

Nameless Hunter said:
By your definition, gasoline and high pressure steam should be classified as an explosive as well - both can be made to explode.
I never gave a definition of anything. And this remark of yours is totally silly. Steam doesn't explode.

You just need to work on your reading comprehension, thinking, and writing skills a bit. You'll get it eventually. 👍
 

Loyalist Dave

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Folks what WE know and understand is only going to apply, and lots of y'all have made some very good observations, but it will only apply if the Federal official is one of "us"..., I doubt that any of the Judges or AUSA's are traditional black powder shooters.

We don't need to get into an interpretation argument, since none of us are going to be asked our interpretation or understanding of what the regs say...,

NO reason for anybody to get "spun up" about it. Whatever we understand from the language, the folks making the accusation(s) will choose that which benefits them not us. Right?

LD
 

sussexmuzllodr

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Just an example of when the Federal Gov. Writes a law they add enough twists and turns to be able to enforce it as they see fit. To the previous poster pyrodex doesn't work in a flint lock
Dear Fellow Enthusiast, I have used P-Dex for a number of years in both percussion and Flinters. The only exception would be making a special grind in small quantities for the pan. Secret Recipe. I can attest to the fact that most of my Harvested Quarry did not know the difference. Stay well. Carry on.
 

docmel

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"I've been thinking about it just haven't had the time or money to start getting the stuff"

Hmmmm.... I'm not trying to ding on the quoter, BUT......... This is a classic give up statement. If you think that way, that's how it will be..............

Time and money, I get it, are resources.......... if you are short on either, take the time for some self-discipline and self-sacrifice......... If you cruise the I net, guess what, you have time...... Research on how to make your own, and cruise and find the best prices........... Be self sufficient as much as you can. Money: Adjust your spending: Sacrifice the extras you have now, prioritize........... Drink a expensive coffee 3 more times a week?........... Eat lunch out 3 or more times? Be honest: Sit down and do a honest self assessment (Which most people really cant do)

It pains me when I see so many folks say, I cant find, this or that............ There are SO MANY ways to make your own BP, caps, bullets and the other things folks say they cant find or afford.

Look, when a disaster hits and you run out of water, food, etc (Like wild fires, weather events, etc), agencies DO NOT GO DOOR TO DOOR to feed or water you. They have station set up out of the way where YOU have to come to the station. My point is, be prepared ahead of time

Mental positivity starts and continues the fight: Excuses and not finding a way around them ends the fight, with you coming in second place, which really means first looser

Look, if you really want to save bucks, I have found MANY places where BP products are for sale, legal, easy to make, and there is NO HAZMAT charge for shipping. Same with caps. PM me and Ill share. Cant go further on the subject due to forum rules

There's an old saying: Why go to a camp that might be MILES away from your home, surrounded by strangers, with people running it that don't really care about you and all you have is the clothes you brought, and you are w/o a firearm = you are now a helpless prisoner: Extreme saying? If you say so, you aren't in a proper, mental forethought frame of mind: Hindsight is a bitter one

What's the maximum range of an excuse? 0.0 meters.......
 

docmel

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One last point. Making your own BP, caps is WAY CHEAPER than buying it, period. And you won't piss away $$$ on so called haz mat shipping charges. And it's very self-fulfilling and builds self confidence
 

J. Paul

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I know that there are folks who make this stuff for personal use. They heavily rely on the fact that they are not "engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials" because they don't sell, trade, or give it away, and thus are not engaged in "business", BUT they seem to stop short of actually reading ALL that applies.

Here is the law and the adjoining laws that combine...., and here is why this is not discussed here, and why I don't do this at home...


Title 18 USC on black powder making and possession



Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 1102, Chapter 40. Importation, Manufacture, Distribution and Storage of Explosive Materials

§   841. Definitions

(d)
Except for the purposes of subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j) of section 844 of this title, “explosives” means any chemical compound mixture, or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion; the term includes, but is not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, black powder, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cord, igniter cord, and igniters.

(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use

§  842. Unlawful Acts (a) It shall be unlawful for any person—

(1) to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials without a license issued under this chapter;

§845. Exceptions; Relief From Disabilities

(a) Except in the case of subsection (l), (m), (n), or (o) of section 842 and subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of section 844 of this title, this chapter shall not apply to:

(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term “destructive dev


So NOTE, "manufacture" includes making BP for personal use, even though it is prefaced by the phrase "..., in the business of...". There need not be any transactions for a person to be a "manufacturer" of BP, and BP is considered an "explosive" even though technically it deflagrates instead of detonating. So one needs a license to do this...., even for personal use.

NOTE that the Federal possession exemption is for fifty pound of black powder...commercially manufactured.... black powder. That means made by a licensed manufacture, NOT by a person making the stuff in the basement for personal use.

It is therefore NOT FAR FETCHED, that a Federal judge could easily find a person in violation of §845 above when in possession of a pound or less of home made black powder. You will read how folks only make a pound or two, well that's possession of powder that is NOT commercially manufactured..., , and UNTIL somebody actually gets federally charged and taken to court..., we have NO WAY of knowing how a judge is going to rule.

So when people say this is "perfectly legal" they are actually predicting it will be thought as such if dragged into a federal court, but they don't actually KNOW that it's legal. OH and some folks will cite instances when persons have been charged and the charges have later been dropped... well that leaves no record nor does it impact the law and its application. It just means the particular AUSA handling prosecution decided it was not worth the time, at that time...

Folks can do what they want when they want, but let's not pretend that they know for a fact the outcome if a third party known as a judge is involved, and further..., the law is subject to change at any time, without notification, since Congress has authorized an official in the Executive Branch to make the definitions....


LD
5 years ago when I started through the paperwork, I had more than 1 opinion gave as to the official language of the regulation involving my own production and use. It was officially concluded at that time for my paperwork that I did not need to do anything further to be legal.
As was stated earlier, that may only be a edit away from a change in legal status.
 
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Never said this and in fact gave explicit examples where it's not.


Never said that. Gave examples where it's not.


At this point you're spinning in circles. I thought you've been saying that BP is an explosive all along. Certainly you've been saying this in previous postings. Did you mean "smokeless powder" here instead of BP? Or can't you keep them straight?

But this has nothing to do with its classification as an explosive. And it doesn't even come close to addressing or being consistent with what you want to say is the difference between black and smokeless powders. At this point, I can't tell whether you think BP is an explosive or not, and whether you think smokeless powder is an explosive or not. You seem to have chased your tail so much that now you've got the two of them totally confused. Luckily, what you think doesn't matter, and the distinctions and classifications are very clearly drawn in the ATF, the literature of chemistry and physics, and the HAZMAT regulations and classifications that YOU originally introduced.


I never gave a definition of anything. And this remark of yours is totally silly. Steam doesn't explode.

You just need to work on your reading comprehension, thinking, and writing skills a bit. You'll get it eventually. 👍
Talk about lack of reading comprehension, take a look in the mirror. If you can't comprehend then don't bother responding. I said your efforts to claim BP has the same explosive classifications as ALL explosives. it CLEARLY does not. BP HAS to be contained to act as an explosive. OTHER explosives DO NOT. Unlike your personal assumptions, I go by the STATED classifications of the agencies and companies who deal with HAZMAT materials. You seem to be confusing your personal assumptions with fact. However much you may wish it were not so, the FACT still remains, smokeless powder IS classified as a flammable propellant - take the time to do a little reading before you spout personal assumptions as fact. Steam, if contained, will also make a very powerful explosion (look up Sep 15, 1896), as will grain dust in a silo.
 
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I found a store on-line. It says they have percussion caps and powder in stock. There is a physical address and a phone # as well as email. The website is very comprehensive. When I un the address through other means, it is a 2BR 2BA house on 5 acres in a subdivision. The website asks for Zelle or Cash App as a way of payment. I am going to email and see if I get a response. Then I will call and ask to physically come to the store. We'll see. A lot of rip-off out there taking advantage of this.
 
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