Hard times for BP shooters

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DixieTexian

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Just because the ATF interprets a law that way does not mean that a federal judge will interpret it that way. The "small arms ammunition and components thereof" exemption may very well exempt powder intended for use in muzzleloaders, or it may not. The ATF probably looks the other way in those instances because they don't want to risk a precedent being set that doesn't favor them. I know a while back there was an issue with a certain unmentionable lower receiver not meeting their definition of a firearm receiver, so they were avoiding taking people to court on those charges because if a judge ruled in favor of the defendant then a 4473 would not be required to purchase one.
 

waksupi

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You are only allowed to own a limited quantity of BP, I believe max 50 lbs?
Over 50 pounds requires a magazine. I usually only have 30-40 pounds on hand at a time, but still keep it in a magazine made from an old refrigerator. Law requires the door not be locked, or latched. That makes it into a hell of a bomb. Magnetic closure works well.
 

Loyalist Dave

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The USC 845 under Chapter 40 has exception 4) for small arms ammunition and components which is not shown in LD's posting of the law. It states as follows:

§845. Exceptions; relief from disabilities
(a) Except in the case of subsection (l), (m), (n), or (o) of section 842 and subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of section 844 of this title, this chapter shall not apply to:

(4) small arms ammunition and components thereof;

(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term "destructive device" in section 921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code;

AH but the rub there is the fact that it mentions black powder apart from small arms ammunition and components thereof.... NOTE the Very Next Entry which you quoted...

(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term "destructive device" in section 921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code;

SO UNDER this, black powder because it is mentioned APART from "small arms ammunition and components thereof" it is therefore NOT considered covered under paragraph 4, otherwise it would be completely redundant, PLUS note that it is specifically written "commercially manufactured" which was my entire point..., IF it is not "commercially" manufactured..., i.e. home made, is NOT an exception.... or is it???.... you and I cannot tell....

LD
 
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Wise. Unfortunately for some, the trick is in how well and carefully they read it and understand it (and the other documents necessary for interpreting it correctly) -- and not try to cherry-pick parts out of it that they use to bolster their own odd beliefs. There's no shortage of other authoritative literature (from sources such as ATF and others) for anyone who really wants to learn the truth.

But if someone decides to read "exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black power" as "exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black power", and stick with that because it suits their view of the world, then that's on them. :rolleyes:

It's really important how carefully you read and how you express things. For example when you said



You said two things: (1) that you understood that BP is an explosive, and (2) that Smokeless is not.

But you're wrong: Smokeless IS an explosive -- as BP is.
Smokeless powder is classified as a propellant (NOT as an explosive): HAZMAT Division 4.1 (flammable solid material)
Black powder IS classified as an explosive: HAZMAT Division 1.1
 
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AH but the rub there is the fact that it mentions black powder apart from small arms ammunition and components thereof.... NOTE the Very Next Entry which you quoted...

(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term "destructive device" in section 921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code;

SO UNDER this, black powder because it is mentioned APART from "small arms ammunition and components thereof" it is therefore NOT considered covered under paragraph 4, otherwise it would be completely redundant, PLUS note that it is specifically written "commercially manufactured" which was my entire point..., IF it is not "commercially" manufactured..., i.e. home made, is NOT an exception.... or is it???.... you and I cannot tell....

LD
Just to add a little more into the mix - from the ATF website. Knowing how the Feds are VERY particular about words, what does engaged in the business actually mean. They didn't say engaged in the act...


Is black powder subject to regulation under federal explosives laws?

Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of federal explosives laws and regulations.
However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).
Regardless, persons engaged in the business [my emphasis] of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements.
[18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of "explosives" and "explosive materials", 555.141(b)]
 
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Smokeless powder is classified as a propellant (NOT as an explosive): HAZMAT Division 4.1 (flammable solid material)
Black powder IS classified as an explosive: HAZMAT Division 1.1
Nice try. But this is what I mean by cherry-picking and not paying attention to details. I'll grant you that the whole Hazmat approach in terms of "compatibility classes" is confusing to the average reader, but you should at least look at all that they have to say about smokeless powder (and the compatibility classes it falls in). As I've mentioned previously, confusion will result when something is talked about in one place in terms of its function (purpose) and in another place in terms of its chemistry and physics. If you aren't up to managing those distinctions, you shouldn't be playing this game. You apparently think that if something is a propellant, then it can't be an explosive, or if it's an explosive then it can't be a propellant. But you really need to rethink that view. Explosives, indeed, can (and are) used to propel things. :)

Here is a direct quote from the Code of Federal Regulations (in Subpart F, section 172.504, clause (g), which is describing requirements on transporting and labeling "hazardous material":

"For shipments of Class 1 (explosive materials) by aircraft or vessel, the applicable compatibility group letter must be displayed on the placards, or labels when applicable, required by this section. ... (blah, blah, blah) ...​
Explosive article means an article containing an explosive substance; examples include a detonator, flare, primer or fuse. Explosive substance means a substance contained in a packaging that is not contained in an article; examples include black powder and smokeless powder. "​

So yeah, smokeless powder is a propellant (that's its usual function, except when you put it in something like a pipe bomb), but in terms of its chemical and physical properties and behavior, it's an EXPLOSIVE (substance).

Now please get over it, and stop insisting that smokeless powder isn't an explosive.
 
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When we get into regulatory minutiae we are all breaking some law every day. We can all be prosecuted for something. The key is to not be a problem to law enforcement or the regulatory powers. Keep a low profile and shut up. If questioned be very nice. Be compliant with whatever they say. If you act out you will have problems.
 
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