Guns of the Southwest Territories

[MSK]

In watching Westerns (eg, filmed at Old Tucson), everything seems to be a six-gun, repeating rifle, or breech loading shotgun. During westward expansion after the Civil War, how popular was the plains rifle and other muzzleloading weapons? Were they still commonly used?

 

[Bear Rider]

People forget that much of the westward expansion took place before 1870. The first WINCHESTER lever action rifle was the model of 1866, the famous "yellow boy". The colt SAA so beloved of western movies wasn't marketed before 1873. Most "movers" as they were called were moving because they had no financial choice, and firearms were not first priority. As a result, most of the firearms were a generation back -- Civil War surplus at best.

 

[Rokon]

Yup, it was probably a double barrel percussion shotgun or a military surplus CW arm of any type.

For a complete history, read "Arming the West" by Herbert G. Houze, available from Mowbray Publishing @2008. Really well documented account.

 

[smoothshooter]

As a far - gone history buff, who has spent lots of hours looking at old photographs, western and eastern ( where identifiable ) I have noticed that the vast majority of guns shown are double barrelled shotguns. Maybe the rifles, being more valuable, were kept carefully put up until needed, but this is speculation only on my part, and not likely.

 

[BrownBear]

...the vast majority of guns shown are double barrelled shotguns....

If the photos were shot in studios, odds are large you are seeing "prop" guns owned by the photographer and having nothing to do with the person in the photo. Start comparing photos from the few photographers collections out there, and you'll start to see the same "model" of guns over and over and over and over and over again.

 

[smoothshooter]

I totally agree on the studio props. I was referring mostly to the family photos taken on homesteads, group photos of law enforcement officers, wagon travelers, etc.
And, I might add, most people could not, or would not, spend the kind of money we do nowadays on many more guns than we actually have a serious need for. Most people were lucky to have one or two. With the shotgun being the most generally useful, and cheapest, if only one or two could be afforded, one of them would likely be a shotgun.

 

[SacramentoJohnson]

Howdy!

Actually, the very first western filmed at what would become "Old Tucson", was "Arizona" from 1940. It was set during and just after the Civil War, and cap & ball revolvers were used as the side arms in it. There was one beautiful military Henry (original) highlighted as well.

Cartridge guns were more plentiful and reliable for filming purposes during the heyday of Western films and so showed up everywhere and in every Old West era.

I suspect that even post Civil War, cap and ball revolvers and muzzle loading rifles and shotguns were quite common. If one's job didn't entail using firearms on a regular basis, I could see where one would keep to the old technology which was well known and cheaper to use. I also agree that shotguns were probably very common.


On another note regarding "Arizona", interestingly, a Blakeslee box and tubes were shown as a sort of 'speed loader' for the Henry. My understanding is that the Blakeslee box/tubes were actually for the Spencer, (but I have seen SASS competitors use similar tubes to 'speed load' their Henrys at the loading table). The prop costumer did a number of things pretty right as concerns cap & ball accessories on the various characters. I can't help but think they had some personal knowledge of the gear and so found this mix up rather surprising.

 

[Brokenlaig]

Now you gotta remember there was a pretty fair expansion period before the Civil War, with folks headed to California, the Oregon Territory and Deseret, and a fair percentage of those folks weren't necessarily dirt poor farmers, but were folks looking to homestead. Many sold farms and homes and had money to purchase decent truck, including firearms, and the heavy half-stock was THE rifle for the westerning family man. Most would already have a smoothbore, but would also purchase a rifle as well. Of course a fair number of older Kentucky/Pennsylvania/Ohio rifles went as well. Military surplus muskets, Injun Trade guns, just damn near anything could and did go west. After the War, lots more people moved west, and by then a lot of vets were moving, so more than a few rifle muskets, many bored to smooth, and everything and anything else.
Remember, it was not a light undertaking to cros the plains, and people tended to take the necessity of self protection pretty seriously, and tended to have at least one good firearm. Many wagon train rules required each wagon to have at least one serviceable rifle each.

 

[cynthialee]

It would seem to me that they would have had a very eclectic collection of firearms from the old gun grand pappy used in the old days up to the most modern of offerings available at the time.
They lived in a time when things were not as quickly discarded.

I imagine that there were fellas with the best and brightest and some with 'functional' old pieces of manure more suited to a tomato stake.

All manner of families went west. Thus it is logical they would have a vast diversity in the guns they carried.

Not like a new gun comes out and people all go buy it and discard the old guns. Sure we may add to the 'arsenal' when a newer and better gun comes along, but the older guns are not disposed of.

 

[bpd303]

Just a sampling of the guns used to defend the Alamo, which would have been representative of the guns that went west IMO. http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/1836/the_battle/the_weapons/small_arms.html

 

[stantdm]

I don't live in the Southwest these days but I live near Deadwood South Dakota. In my appraisal days I saw a lot of family heirloom guns brought in for valuation and a little history. While I probably saw about 50 of them over the ten years I did that sort of thing most of them were muzzle loaders brought into the hills when gold was discovered in 1876. A lot of them were civil war era Springfields and Enfields. I only recall seeing one plains rifle and it was of unknown make and weighed about 15 pounds. It was about 53 caliber and the forearm of the stock was worn in an arc from being carried across a saddle.

I remember one 1859 3 band Sharps paper cartridge paper tape primer rifle. There were percussion revolvers. Recently I saw a Evans repeating rifle brought in to the hills in 1877. Most of the lever actions we saw were 1866, 1873, and 1886 models. I recall one Spencer carbine and a couple of rarer civil war era guns like a Burnside and one whose name escapes me.

Some of the Colt Peacemakers we saw came from families that had an ancestor come up from Texas on a cattle drive or as a freighter from back east as Deadwood was a supply destination from a lot of points like Bismark, Pierre, Sydney, and Cheyenne. A lot of those folks didn't come into this country until the 1880's and their firearms were a bit newer than the first arrivals.

 

[satx78247]

Based on what I've been able to find (during my years of looking for information on our tribe's journey to Texas & attempts to follow the member's movements elsewhere), most of the PRE-1880 emigrants were poor & therefore likely to mostly have moved West with military surplus ML rifles, muskets & "hardware store quality" shotguns.
Even cheap/plentiful/"easy to convert to percussion" AWI muskets "came West", as they could be bought REALLY cheaply.
(As I've said elsewhere, one of the "CSA soldier-boys" in our family went to war with a Brown Bess, that his father had bought for 25 cents in 1861.)

Note: In the early statehood period of OK (circa 1910), there was a "call for general militia" after a line of tornados devastated southeastern OK & the records of THE McCURTAIN COUNTY JOURNAL indicate that numerous men "responded to the summons to repel looters and freebooters" armed with ML rifles & shotguns.
Furthermore, my Great-Uncle Ollie Parker (a gunsmith & blacksmith) was still routinely repairing (and building NEW muzzle-loading rifles, too) in Delaware County, when I was a child in the mid-1950s.

yours, satx

 

[Captjoel]

Several years ago I bought an original longrifle that I was told was made for the gunsmith's son by the name of Amos. I did research on the gunsmith and could not find any info about him having a son named Amos. A couple of years went by and I had totally disregarded the story. On a beautiful sunny late summer day I had a good friend over who wanted to examine my old rifle. Set outside on a blanket on my picnic table, my friend found some letters very lightly scratched under the patch box lid. "AMOS SHELL July 1849". I had to do some cleaning of the gunk build up with alcohol to see the date which was on the second line from the name. Wow, that brought back what the seller had told me about the gunsmiths son! I later told this story to another friend I had met over the internet a while before. This was an actual descendent of the PA gunsmith. He told me that there actually was a son named AMOS who had been born in 1830 and who had died on July 4, 1850 in a place called Little Sandy Run (somewhere in Wyoming territory) on his way to the California gold fields. My rifle, which is quite special for this maker, had been made special for the 19 year old son to take on his journey west!

 

[Captjoel]

 

[MSK]

Fascinating! So Amos passed a year after being presented with the rifle which must have been with him at the time. Any idea as to the provenance after its owner's ill fated trip? Would it be too much to ask for some more photos?

 

[azmntman]

Thats a gun I would pay alot for! Have you fired it?

 

[Captjoel]

 

[Captjoel]

 

[Captjoel]

I look at this rifle and imagine. A very young man sitting on the back of a covered wagon with the western stars a blazing in the sky. While he sat there scratching his name inside the patchbox of his gun. All I can do is speculate about what happened to this rifle after young 19 year old Amos died on the trail. I have been in search for his cause of death for some time as well. Quite possibly the rifle was returned to his family with the rest of his belongings. That was the usual Christian thing to do. As for shooting it....no, I have not as I have learned to shoot and enjoy many others. I just enjoy this one for what it is.

 

[MSK]

Glad to hear you're not interested in firing it. Nice late Dauphin County details. John Shell actually numbered many of his rifles. Have you found one on that piece? If you hadn't given the maker and the date I'd have dated it earlier than it is by 20 years or so, but he made guns into the Civil War period I believe, so there are probably even later examples of such a longrifle. The study of these guns is too complex for my limited apptitude...

What a wonderful piece and story. Thank you for sharing it.