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GRRW Leman trade rifle questions

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I recently acquired a GRRW Leman, and had a few questions. This was one of the kits, assembled outside the factory about 1974. The builder (or subsequent owner, who knows?) made a couple changes to it, and I'm trying to plan what I want to do with it.

Sights have been replaced. The current rear is one of the buck horns that adjusts with the step riser, similar to the sight L&R sells as their "Hawken ramp sight". Front sight is a silver blade that is entirely too narrow, and too shiny, for my tastes. Does anyone have pictures of the sights the factory was using at the time? I can always go with a regular fixed rear and change out the front to something that suits me, but wanted to see what they were using a the time.

The lock has been replaced. Looks like it is probably an L&R "Leman". I'm going to have to do some woodwork to patch the gaps around the lock (either fit in a patch and re-inlet or shave the panel/glue on a new piece/re-inlet the plate). Kind of a bummer, I can remember hearing about the Kern lock and wanted to see one in the ferrous flesh.

Triggers: somehow, someone managed to fit a set of double set triggers in what looks like the factory triggerguard. I've not removed the triggerguard to check for marks, but the spacing of the triggers, and the trigger shapes, kinda feels like Long's triggers of that era. I can shoot it bare-handed, not sure if I could shoot it wearing gloves. Did GRRW use a trigger bar, or did the copy Leman's original trigger setup?

Barrel staple is AWOL. The wedge is the thickest I've ever seen on a ML: finished, but thicker than any rough casting I've worked with in the past. Is this what they were using back in the day? If not, when I get to replacing the staple I will probably replace the wedge escutcheons, add some wood, and put in a "normal" wedge. Right now, there's a band of rawhide sewn around the fore end holding it together.

There are some minor changes that may or may not happen. I may replace the silver dollar inlet in the cheekpiece with an engraved silver oval. Might add a Leman cap box.

Other than the sights, there will probably be no changes til after deer season. I'm just happy to have it. I got into ML as a kid, right about the time GRRW went under, but I've always wanted one of their rifles.

Thanks!
 
I'm sure is am speaking for others as well as myself, but can you post some pictures?

The person you want to contact is plmeek, who started the GRRW Collectors Association. I think Phil knows more about these rifles than anyone else you are likely to meet. If he doesn't respond to this thread in a reasonable time, maybe look him up in the "Members" list and start a private conversation. I have conferred with him a couple of times and he has always been willing to help and a wealth of information.

The GRRW Collectors Association has a terrific website. I'm using a device right now that makes it difficult to post links, but if you just Google "grrw collectors association," it should not be hard to find.

I have never owned a GRRW rifle, but I bought some Leman parts from them back in the seventies, intending to build one of my own, which never happened. I finally sold the parts to a collector last year. I think GRRW had one style of Leman trigger guard, basically for a single trigger, which they would somehow "stretch" to fit double-set triggers. The guard I had would have been really tight for double triggers. The trigger plate I had was a very simple piece of thin (~1/16") flat stock, slotted for the trigger. There was no lug on it. The trigger itself was very plain and slightly curved. I think it was intended to be mounted on a pin through the stock, in the traditional way, rather than on a "trigger assembly," which seems more common nowadays. I'll try to find and post pictures of the parts I had, if it will be of any help.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
LongWalker, if you can post some pictures of your rifle, I could advise you on some of your questions.

GRRW made changes to their Leman rifle over the years they produced them. It's important to know which version your rifle fits. Early on, GRRW made most of their sights in house. Later they used commercial cast sights. They used as many as four different locks on their Leman rifles at different times.

Early Leman rifles were made with barrel keys, later rifles sometimes had pins. The thickness of the keys changed over time with the early ones being thicker. Their Lemans with single triggers were made with a simple pinned trigger. Double set triggers were normally a short trigger plate, Kentucky style. If someone added set triggers aftermarket, then they may have used Long's triggers. I would need to see photos before I could comment on your case.

If you can't post photos of your rifle, take a look at my website, Leman Trade Rifle – GRRW Collector and tell us which examples I have pictured most resemble your rifle.
 
Thanks Phil.

Apologies for the lousy photos, my macro lens is 150 miles west of here. Per the PO (reportedly the second owner), it was built about '74. Story is the silver dollar in the cheekpiece was first prize in the inaugural state shoot up in MT in '77.

Definitely a kit gun. No serial number, no maker's mark. Barrel is presumably a Douglas (8 groove), 50 caliber.

I'd have to cut the rawhide to get to the wedge. I had the impression that the wedge is possibly nickel-plated or German silver: it was previously covered by leather for 20+ years, and was still bright--no signs of corrosion. Unfortunately, I didn't think to check to see if it was magnetic before covering it up.

Looks like the finger rail behind the triggerguard was bent, it doesn't have the sweeping curve of the triggerguards shown on the GRRW webpage. No sign of a splice in the triggerguard bow as if it had been extended for the triggers. OAL of the triggerguard is right about 7 1/8" as discussed on the GRRW collectors page. Looking "around the corner" inside the triggerguard, I can see the front end of the trigger plate: looks like it was shortened.
butt.JPGfront sight.JPGlock and triggers.JPGsight.JPG
 

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Your rifle has the early commercial butt plate which dates it pre-1977. If it was purchased/assembled in 1974 as you've been told, the trigger guard has been changed along with the lock. The present trigger guard looks like the proprietary guard that Phil "Bluejacket" Sanders designed from an original in Doc White's collection. It looks like the present trigger guard is held on with screws. That's not the way GRRW did it. They pinned the trigger guard in the stock.

The lock presently on the rifle is a Ron Long Hawken lock. It would have had the Bob Kern coil spring lock if it actually dates to 1974. But I would agree the lock is probably a replacement due to the gap in the wood at the top of the lock plate.

I have three early Leman Trade Rifles in my collection with serial numbers 516, 574, and 1003. The two earliest rifles have the Kern lock while the #1003 has a Ron Long lock.

All three have the same rear sight. It is most like #RS-G-352 in TOTW Catalog #18, if you have one of their catalogs. I don't think Track carries that sight anymore, at least I couldn't find it in their online catalog. Probably a casting from Pete Allen's foundry that has been shut down for a number of years now. I would suggest you substitute any buckhorn or semi-buckhorn rear sight that would fit the dovetail in the barrel.

The triggers presently in the rifle don't appear to be original. I don't think they are Ron Long's triggers either. Might be something from a TC or CVA rifle. The set triggers in the GRRW Leman rifles I have are much like #TR-520 from Catalog #18, again something not currently available.

As far as the front sight, these seem to vary on my rifles. One is a German silver blade in a brass base, one is all brass, and my later Leman rifles have cast steel blade and base or German silver blade in steel base. You can put whatever you want with the blade thickness you desire.

Concerning the missing barrel loop, I've documented how GRRW made theirs and the way they were installed if it helps you in making a replacement. You can find that information at this link Barrel Loops.

The barrel key or wedge on these early Leman and early Hawken rifles were ¼" wide and ⅛" thick. All the ones I've seen were made of steel and fashioned in their shop. That doesn't mean that the person that assembled the kit couldn't have substituted German silver.

Hope this helps.
 
I don't know if this will add anything useful to the discussion or not, but here are some photos of the Leman parts I bought from GRRW in 1976. These were taken when I had them up for sale. I was contacted by a buyer within minutes of posting.

IMG_1424 (2).JPG


...and a slightly more detailed image of the trigger, trigger plate, and guard. Yes, that is rust on the trigger and plate. These parts were lost for about 28 years. I thought they had been permanently lost in a move, but I found them accidentally one day when I was cleaning off a shelf in the garage:

IMG_1425 (2).JPG


Note that the triggerguard has tabs for pins. The bow is a good size for the single trigger, but it would be hard to fit double set triggers to this guard as it is.

The next photo shows the GRRW "mark" on the inside of the buttplate:

IMG_1426.JPG


This shows the little "tombstone" GRRW mark on the front tab of the triggerguard. They probably just didn't have room to put the "GRRW" lettering:

IMG_1427.JPG


Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
Thanks for posting those pics, Notchy. Those are the proprietary Leman butt plate and trigger guard that Phil "Bluejacket" Sanders designed. The "tombstone" mark is a version of Bluejacket's makers mark. It has a simple "stick man" inside the tombstone. Sometimes he just used the "stick man".

GRRW Tomahawk P Sanders Makers Mark.jpg


Bluejacket was recognized at the time for his knowledge of trade guns. George Shumway, the author and publisher of books on longrilfes, actually visited Roosevelt, Utah just to stop by and talk with Bluejacket as mentioned in this letter by Lloyd Helms.
77_03 BR Lloyd Helms letter Shumway visits Bluejacket.jpg


I suspect that the inclusion of the "tombstone" in Bluejacket's makers mark was him paying homage to the mark common on Northwest trade guns.

I think GRRW had one style of Leman trigger guard, basically for a single trigger, which they would somehow "stretch" to fit double-set triggers.

I came across what I believe are some wood blocks to help stretch the single trigger guard into a double trigger guard. I've posted a piece with pictures of how I think they may have used these on my website, Guard Stretcher Blocks.
 
Gentlemen, thank you both for your assistance. When I have time to tear into it, I'll start work on "retro-verting" it back close to factory.

Before then though, I need it for some pictures (cover shot for a book I've been working on for a couple decades-plus). It'll be in good company, paired with a copy of the oldest bag I've been able to document as used in the trans-Mississippi West, and a fair buffalo horn, just like the original that as best I can recall was the first flinter I ever shot. (Now if I could just find an example of what Villasur's men were carrying. . . . )

Be well,
Jim
 
My 1st ex-brother-in-law had one of these rifles, it was a great shooter. I hope who ever stole it out of his truck has kept it in good shape,
 
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