Great Youtube movie on penetration - with a Hawken replica...

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
1,840
Location
Colorado
i also wonder about the shooting range quip. mine starts in front of my bedroom french doors!:D

Wish I could shoot from my house. Be nice to have French doors too!

Everyone is welcome to their opinions of course. But mine is that the lowly round ball is an excellent penetrator and takes on a deadly shape. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on any North American game animal in a size appropriate to the beast.

Regarding the bullet that took a side trip, this is not uncommon with projectiles that are stabized but it takes even more stability to stay on track in a medium denser than air.
 

GYJ

40 Cal
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
180
Reaction score
426
That baffled me too. I don't understand what's wrong with having a shooting range behind your house? I can't hardly think of anything better!
I'm still trying to figure it out. Twice now I have spent a whole bunch of money to have a place where I can shoot and even hunt on my own property but that somehow makes it 'less' serious??? My shooting bench is now 50ft from my reloading bench and that my friends, was a lifelong dream. I shoot nearly every day but somehow having to pack up and go to a public range is better??? It is baffling.
 

GYJ

40 Cal
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
180
Reaction score
426
Regarding the bullet that took a side trip, this is not uncommon with projectiles that are stabized but it takes even more stability to stay on track in a medium denser than air.
Once it strikes flesh, stability comes from the shape and balance of the projectile. Some bullets penetrate relatively straight while others are prone to tumbling or changing direction. All comes down to the shape, balance and the propensity of the material to deform. This is why the LBT designs are so good and it took a lot of R&D to get there.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
134
Reaction score
273
I am always disturbed by these 'penetration' demos with bullets. Newcomers to this game are often still in a modern gun thinking mode and believe bigger is better. What we do should is not try to increase the effectiveness of historical firearms but, rather, to use them to the best of our ability within their (near) original limits. Promoting heavy bullets can lead to disappointment for the beginner, especially if trying to kill game at modern rifle ranges. The extreme drop causes accuracy issues many are not experienced to adjust to. Yes, I'm a prb advocate and tool old and stubborn to change. BTW, that video was not using a Hawken rifle. He was using a TC 'not-really-a-hawken-hawken' so named only for marketing purposes. Then I noticed his shooting range in the background, directly in front of a house. o_O For me, that destroyed any credibility that might have been shown in the rest of the video.
I appreciate the critiques Rifleman!

I don’t think that was the point. All of us have a gun that’s not up to snuff some how. That’s even the most perfect bench copy.
I know for me, and maybe for Rifleman it’s the interest in making a ml act like a modern gun.
Even using a traditional styled ml one can push the limits beyond anything ml of old had.
And that takes the bite out of ml
One can shoot an ml
Or shoot a crappy front loading modern gun
I’d love to hear more on this perspective, if either of you have time to share. I truly hadn’t considered it. The origin of this video and the others like it is coming from newcomers who have questions, I never considered it to be making the muzzleloader ‘act modern’. I’m certainly open to hearing more of your perspectives, Thanks for your time!
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
1,840
Location
Colorado
Once it strikes flesh, stability comes from the shape and balance of the projectile. Some bullets penetrate relatively straight while others are prone to tumbling or changing direction. All comes down to the shape, balance and the propensity of the material to deform. This is why the LBT designs are so good and it took a lot of R&D to get there.

Users of the maxi ball in 1:48 guns have seen this change in direction on game. I think in the case of the OP it was more related to the bullet deforming too much and literally skidding on the medium (water). Since we are on the subject of LBT, Veral followed the proven behavior of flat points and their tendency to track straight when deformation is minimal. Makers of large caliber dangerous game solids have discovered that flat points instead of round nose is more effective and penetrates straighter.

When I look at the maxi and R-E-A-L with their more pointy noses it makes me wonder if they are a detriment to penetration. I'd like to see the Lee modern minie and any other of the "flying trash can" designs tested as above.

My other thought on this is that the use of hollow points on these bullets may, like pointy noses, appeal to some shooters because they harken to modern firearm designs. Good marketing but a detriment to penetration?
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
22,508
Reaction score
20,016
Location
Republic mo
I appreciate the critiques Rifleman!


I’d love to hear more on this perspective, if either of you have time to share. I truly hadn’t considered it. The origin of this video and the others like it is coming from newcomers who have questions, I never considered it to be making the muzzleloader ‘act modern’. I’m certainly open to hearing more of your perspectives, Thanks for your time!
I think you do real good. I’m subscribed. And I can see where your coming from. It’s just I hate to see any non traditional shot put down a ml. Minnies for minnie shooters and other conical guns, ball for most.
Opinions are like other parts of the body. That’s mine,
I’m sure it stinks
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
134
Reaction score
273
I think you do real good. I’m subscribed. And I can see where your coming from. It’s just I hate to see any non traditional shot put down a ml. Minnies for minnie shooters and other conical guns, ball for most.
Opinions are like other parts of the body. That’s mine,
I’m sure it stinks
No stink given Tenngun, none at all! I appreciate the conversation, it helps me understand more of where people are coming from and better informs videos, articles, and conversations. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I’ll not be one to take that away.
 
Joined
Sep 4, 2022
Messages
25
Reaction score
36
Location
Sitka AK
Thanks to TFoley for posting Ethans video. I built my .54 Renegade from a T/C kit in 1981, ( does that make it a not-Renegade?) I've enjoyed shooting and hunting with my rifle all over our country in the last four decades.
I've also used the internet since it was a "bulletin board" to find out information and gather opinions, what it was meant to be.
Last year I used my "Sensei YouTube" to school me in progressive reloading for handguns. Something I've wanted to do for many years. Came to find that 40 years of single stage long gun reloading skillls didn't cross over to progressive reloading.
Now my interests are back into seeing what my .54 Renegade can do. And I'm going to get schooled on what is going on with traditional muzzleloader's, including mine, through forum's like this one. And yes, "Sensei YouTube" videos, like ilovemuzzleloading have created.
So Kudos to everyone that shares information they can back up or opinions as long as it's presented as an opinion and not a fact.
 

GYJ

40 Cal
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
180
Reaction score
426
Users of the maxi ball in 1:48 guns have seen this change in direction on game. I think in the case of the OP it was more related to the bullet deforming too much and literally skidding on the medium (water). Since we are on the subject of LBT, Veral followed the proven behavior of flat points and their tendency to track straight when deformation is minimal. Makers of large caliber dangerous game solids have discovered that flat points instead of round nose is more effective and penetrates straighter.

When I look at the maxi and R-E-A-L with their more pointy noses it makes me wonder if they are a detriment to penetration. I'd like to see the Lee modern minie and any other of the "flying trash can" designs tested as above.

My other thought on this is that the use of hollow points on these bullets may, like pointy noses, appeal to some shooters because they harken to modern firearm designs. Good marketing but a detriment to penetration?
Exactly! The problem when it comes to muzzleloaders is the use of soft pure lead and it is guaranteed to deform. As soon as that bullet starts deforming, everything changes. This is why I don't see the need for "bullets" out of these guns if all you're hunting is deer. These are already some of the largest projectiles used by modern shooters, so a lot of mass and expansion are really totally unnecessary. I reckon if you wanted to hunt larger critters with one and still use a cast bullet, you could use hardcast WFN's and sabots but then traditional slow twist rifles go out the window. It's an interesting conundrum.

I obsess about bullets when it comes to hunting with revolvers but with muzzleloaders, I just load and shoot. Mostly .530's.
 
Top