Great Youtube movie on penetration - with a Hawken replica...

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I am always disturbed by these 'penetration' demos with bullets. Newcomers to this game are often still in a modern gun thinking mode and believe bigger is better. What we do should is not try to increase the effectiveness of historical firearms but, rather, to use them to the best of our ability within their (near) original limits. Promoting heavy bullets can lead to disappointment for the beginner, especially if trying to kill game at modern rifle ranges. The extreme drop causes accuracy issues many are not experienced to adjust to. Yes, I'm a prb advocate and tool old and stubborn to change. BTW, that video was not using a Hawken rifle. He was using a TC 'not-really-a-hawken-hawken' so named only for marketing purposes. Then I noticed his shooting range in the background, directly in front of a house. o_O For me, that destroyed any credibility that might have been shown in the rest of the video.
 
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@ILoveMuzzeloading Good job Ethan! By the way, I’m always looking forward to good podcasts about anything/everything concerning traditional muzzleloading. Looking forward to more of those from you. Thanks again!
 
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In his defense I have to say he covers muzzleloaders, without distinction between traditional and modern. He has put out some good stuff on traditional and aspects of the sport we don’t get a lot of on this forum.
However I’m with Rifleman76 on this. Except for the late ML that were made for minnies, and similar conicals, ‘sugar loafs’, ball should be your projectile, little ones(shot) or big’uns and shoot in the limits crappy projectile, rock-in-the-lock or tiny flashes of cap poppers give you.
 

kopelli

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Very good video. He demonstrates the various bullets without bias and leaves the conclusions to me. This video gives newcomers information it would otherwise take years of testing to acquire. I personally find MLing about choices, options, and potential results, not finding the only "should do" way.
 

GYJ

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Unfortunately, testing in water jugs and other commonly used media like wood, only tells you how a bullet/load performs in those specific mediums. Water is more fun to watch but neither is particularly useful in predicting how projectiles will perform in flesh.


Then I noticed his shooting range in the background, directly in front of a house. o_O For me, that destroyed any credibility that might have been shown in the rest of the video.
What does that have to do with it?
 
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Like i tell these guys that are starting out all you need for deer is a regular patched roundball for deer out to 100 yards.The conicals will just be more accurate out past a 100 yards.
Disagree with your second sentence. If at a range with a bench rest you can zero very accurately to a specific range. But, for hunting, those conicals have a rainbow trajectory. What might be zeroed for 150 yards will fall short of your game if he is standing at 160 yards. Or, if he is at 130 your lead will go over his back.
 

kopelli

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Unfortunately, testing in water jugs and other commonly used media like wood, only tells you how a bullet/load performs in those specific mediums. Water is more fun to watch but neither is particularly useful in predicting how projectiles will perform in flesh.



What does that have to do with it?
In the past I've used both gallon jugs filled with colored water (nice effects) and used wet phone books for penetration tests. I've since discarded my collection of recovered projectiles from animals shot over the years. Lots of variables involved, but I preferred the Buffalo Bullet for punch and expansion, a 45 caliber pistol bullet and sabot for accuracy out of my 50 TC (no longer a choice in Idaho for hunting) , and round ball for pleasure and fun, even though I've killed more deer, elk, and javalina with RB. Happy hunting.
 

Frontier's

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I am always disturbed by these 'penetration' demos with bullets. Newcomers to this game are often still in a modern gun thinking mode and believe bigger is better. What we do should is not try to increase the effectiveness of historical firearms but, rather, to use them to the best of our ability within their (near) original limits. Promoting heavy bullets can lead to disappointment for the beginner, especially if trying to kill game at modern rifle ranges. The extreme drop causes accuracy issues many are not experienced to adjust to. Yes, I'm a prb advocate and tool old and stubborn to change. BTW, that video was not using a Hawken rifle. He was using a TC 'not-really-a-hawken-hawken' so named only for marketing purposes. Then I noticed his shooting range in the background, directly in front of a house. o_O For me, that destroyed any credibility that might have been shown in the rest of the video.
That's a Traditions Hawken. A shooting range on your property is now a no no? Stop cutting down folks unless you're willing to step up and teach others, your proper way of doing things.
 

Idaho Ron

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Disagree with your second sentence. If at a range with a bench rest you can zero very accurately to a specific range. But, for hunting, those conicals have a rainbow trajectory. What might be zeroed for 150 yards will fall short of your game if he is standing at 160 yards. Or, if he is at 130 your lead will go over his back.
Your thinking is limited to what you personally know.
Thankfully, reality for many of us is we just simply set the sight for the shot and shoot the animal with a dead on hold at what ever the yardage is. 100 yards? Set the sight and shoot. 172 yards? Set the sight and hold dead on. 248 yards? Set the sight and shoot.
Holding over or under is a poor way to hunt.
 

GeronPG

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one poster's statement about "discarding his collection of recovered bullets" reminded me my collection from muzzleloaders is 1. From about 8 deer harvested with a M-L, 7 were through-and-through. Just one prb found under the hide of the back hip of a small doe shot in the front shoulder. About half were prb's, half were .44 with sabots. Oh, and 1 Lee REAL bullet. All with about 60-75 gr. of either BP or Pyrodex. Where I hunt, I seldom have shots past 50 yds. so I get plenty of velocity with a moderate charge.
So penetration of projectiles of all types has been more than adequate. It didn't really surprise me the prb got though the most jugs, but it probably expanded the least of those tested.
 

kyron4

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BTW, that video was not using a Hawken rifle. He was using a TC 'not-really-a-hawken-hawken' so named only for marketing purposes.
It's a Traditions St. Louis Hawken rifle he built from a kit. He did a series of videos on the build process, very helpful for the first time kit builders. I suppose he could have got a "real" Hawken rifle from a museum or collector just for the purpose of this penetration video to keep things real. :rolleyes:
 
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It's a Traditions St. Louis Hawken rifle he built from a kit. He did a series of videos on the build process, very helpful for the first time kit builders. I suppose he could have got a "real" Hawken rifle from a museum or collector just for the purpose of this penetration video to keep things real. :rolleyes:
I don’t think that was the point. All of us have a gun that’s not up to snuff some how. That’s even the most perfect bench copy.
I know for me, and maybe for Rifleman it’s the interest in making a ml act like a modern gun.
Even using a traditional styled ml one can push the limits beyond anything ml of old had.
And that takes the bite out of ml
One can shoot an ml
Or shoot a crappy front loading modern gun
 

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