Going public!

Discussion in 'General Muzzleloading' started by Britsmoothy, May 15, 2019.

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  1. May 18, 2019 #81

    WRustyLane

    WRustyLane

    WRustyLane

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    Good luck to ya, Brit, and I hope ya git things sorted out. I'm glad that I live in Tennessee, home of the brave and land of the free. To all ya Federales that might be monitorin' this site, I was crossin' a pond with all my guns in a boat and it developed a leak and sank and all my guns went to the bottom. I had to swim to save my own life. I am now defenseless and do not own any guns (firearms)! Except for my pellet rifle so I can shoot snakes and such.
     
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  2. May 18, 2019 #82

    Bo T

    Bo T

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    Time to start shooting left handed.
     
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  3. May 18, 2019 #83

    Felix the Cat

    Felix the Cat

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    I have been shooting muzzle loading firearms in the UK for over forty years.. I have been round the "musket bouy" many times, and the position is as follows (despite what FEOs and Police might like to believe..):

    The firearms act defines a shotgun as a "smoothbore firearm with a barrel more than 24"".. there is NO reference to projectiles in this definition. A smoothbore musket, by this definition is therefore a shotgun for the purposes of the Act, and is licenced under Section 2 of this act, not Section 1.

    Ammunition is dealt with under a separate part of the act. Possession of assembled cartridges is controlled under Section 1 of the Act, except for Shotgun Cartridges which are exempt provided they contain more than 5 projectiles. Muzzle loading firearms do not use self contained cartridges with a means of ignition..!

    The Police cannot argue that use of muskets with single balls are a subject for interpretation. Muskets were known and understood at the time the Acts were written and we must assume that the drafters of the Act did not see fit to include them in Section 1 provisions which refer specifically to rifled firearms or high capacity magazine arms. It is not for the Police to further interpret this aspect, and it is perfectly clear that a prosecution under this assumption would fail at court. If anyone has been directed to hold a musket on a Section 1 Firearms licence in UK, then I would strongly advise them to challenge it..!

    There are, as pointed out in this thread, minimum energy levels for deer in UK, and you could not normally use a musket for hunting. There is an overriding duty of care in using firearms, and you would certainly be held responsible for any damage caused, but there is no specific legal restriction on using ball in a muzzle loading firearm. A Musket has roughly the same lethality as a shotgun at its operating range of around 75 yards.. so why licence them separately..?

    I suggest you contact either the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain or the UK NRA regarding this..

    You may be interested to know that I have run a "have a go" musket stand at a local Game Fair for over twenty years, with the full approval of the Police..
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  4. May 18, 2019 #84

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    Thank you sir.
    That is exactly how I understand the law.
    Thank you for putting it so well.
    I think the police are trying to bolt the stable door after the horse bolted on this subject!
    B.
     
  5. May 18, 2019 #85

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

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    Like Ronald Reagan said , the worst thing you could hear is ------ Hi, I am from the government and came here to help you.
     
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  6. May 18, 2019 #86

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    So today amidst all this confusion I got some 000 buck and loaded five on top of 70grn.
    It is crazy to use so much lead for legal reasons I know.
    It's crazy to think they think this is safer, I mean 5x .36" compared to one .44"!

    Despite that it went well. Out of five shots I collected three rabbits. The longest being 49 strides.

    They leave the gun on a lower trajectory. I soon learnt I need to elevate the front sight fully with this load. There is ample power but I did not know they shoot low when I shot the target below.

    DSC00033.JPG
    Stringing seems to be vertical and zeroed for windage.
    B.
     
  7. May 18, 2019 #87

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    :cool:
     
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  8. May 18, 2019 #88

    Felix the Cat

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    With the greatest of respect sir, he is NOT breaking the law in UK..

    This is a significantly contested issue, and although your local practice may be to hold muskets on FAC, this is by no means universal. As I said in another post, I would strongly suggest you and your fellow members contest this, and ask where exactly in the law is it required. The Police have significant powers of discretion and approval under the Acts, however they are not able to interpret what is not there..

    This is a constabulary overreaching its authority, and it needs to be challenged.. I am not saying that UK firearms law is either logical or effective, it is however what it is and it is for the Police to enforce and not create...!
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  9. May 18, 2019 #89

    Felix the Cat

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    .. and I am sure that you are taking due care to avoid ricochet and ensure you have a solid backstop!

    I suspect this is all about the Police wanting to control game shooting, which in reality they have little statuary duty! They also seem to want to gain more control over shooting club activity, even though this is clearly a home office issue..
     
  10. May 19, 2019 #90

    Zonie

    Zonie

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    I don't know what lawyers charge over there but, over here in the USA most of them charge by the minute and the amount is not cheap.

    While you may be right in saying this issue should be decided by the courts, trying to do so without legal counsel usually doesn't get far and here in the States one can easily spend $50,000 in legal fees if a lawyer is involved.

    Unless Brit has a big pile of money with nothing to do with it I think his best option is to load up his smooth bore, aim a little high to account for the lower velocity and have fun hunting the bunnies and squirrels. :)
     
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  11. May 19, 2019 #91

    SDSmlf

    SDSmlf

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    Best part of Zonie’s suggestion, no matter what ones believes is correct, is it keeps one under the radar. Personally, would be torn between doing what was easy and what is right. From my safe little seat in the States I can not predict what the outcome of following Felix’s advice would be. Don’t know the local laws, politicians or political climate where our friend Brit lives. Choices are keeping one’s head down or shouting look at me. Honestly have no good advice as to which road to follow. When you come to point it is your decision to travel the road that is....
     
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  12. May 19, 2019 #92

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    The sad thing is there is no law that forbids the use of a long rifle for hunting small game and vermin but to own one one needs a firearm license.
    A firearm license differs from a shotgun license in that one is to be granted a shotgun licence by law but one has to have a good reason to own a rifle.
    So, club shooting, vermin. Deer hunting are good reasons.
    For decades I have requested an allocation of a long rifle to my firearm licence for hunting and repeatedly failed!
    For some bazar reason in the home office guide lines to the police this request is to be deterred, deterred with no basis in law that is!!
    It is very frustrating to put it mildly.

    B.
     
  13. May 19, 2019 #93

    Felix the Cat

    Felix the Cat

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    My view is that one should always support the Police in the interest of a peaceful society, and to uphold the law. However where a Police force is attempting to extend their authority further than the law allows for, then this needs to be politely, but firmly, challenged. It is for the courts and Parliament to interpret and make the law, the Police are there to uphold it.

    Whilst it is reasonable to expect Police to exercise discretion where the law allows for it, it is certainly not acceptable for the Police to extend their authority where the law does not make such provision, particularly when there is no clear threat or issue that requires this action. It is unacceptable for the Police to threaten actions which would not stand up in court on the basis that the subject is unable to defend themselves. That is a very short path to tyranny..

    There have been a number of technical developments such as Bump Stocks and MMARS actions which have appeared to try and circumvent the rules on automatic and semi automatic firearms. I have some sympathy with the authorities over their attempts to control such developments within the law, particularly where the need for such devices and the motivation of the users is questionable. The position regarding muskets however is fundamentally different. Smooth bore, muzzle loading long arms loaded with a single ball have been in continuous use in these islands from at least the 15th Century. They have been used for sporting, defensive and military use over the centuries and have featured in legislation many times over this period. The Police cannot claim that they are something new, creating a novel threat that could not have been anticipated by the drafters of the law.

    UK firearms law is a mess. Instead of maintaining a central element of coherent law, the situation has been allowed to develop piecemeal, with bits of legislation scattered across numerous acts as a result of political point scoring and knee jerking. Most of the recent elements have been badly drafted by largely ignorant administrators overly influenced by unrepresentative pressure groups. That said, the UK firearms law generally works, and provided an individual has a reasonable purpose for possessing firearms, there is usually not a problem. The UK media however has a view that "everything is banned" and that any incident involving a firearm is a cue for more "investigative journalism" and chest beating complaints to "tighten up the law". The Police are clearly influenced by this, and have a habit of playing along.

    The Police are not the Law, and must gently be reminded of this when they forget...!

    If the Police have a concern with Mr Smoothie's use of firearms for rabbit and squirrel control, then they need to make this case. I have no knowledge or understanding of Mr Smoothie's character or intention, however if he presents a threat to public safety by his activities, then there are other ways to challenge him. Frankly, if he poses such an unacceptable threat to the extent that the Police are making up new law, then perhaps he is not a fit person to possess even a shotgun licence? Again, I would suggest that the British Association for Shooting and Conservation might have a view...?
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  14. May 19, 2019 #94

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    Perfectly put again.

    Just for the record.....I have held a firearms licence since 1993 and have no convictions against me. I have never had to defend myself from accusation either.
    After many years of all sorts of unmentionable rifles ownership I have on numerous occasion remind my police force of what their job is in these matters and I secretly think that by not kissing their boots they don't like it!

    With such a pathetic system and approach to licensing and hunting is it any wonder that so many poach game illegally.
    Britain is full of people that want to control, control your very thoughts and if you think out side of a type you are ostracised.
    What the less informed public don't get is that when you ban something or severely restrict something the something doesn't just magic away, no it goes to the underworld or off the radar so to speak and then, then it is really out of any control!
    Dummies.
     
  15. May 19, 2019 #95

    TFoley

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    I'm standing up here to apologise to Britsmoothy for coming over as the bad guy in all this. Things are, as Felix notes, not 'happy in the state of Denmark' where I happen to live in the UK, and although it is a rural county, with what the weekly local rag calls an 'ever-increasing number of firearms certificates being issued' is it by no means shooter-friendly by the standards of most here in UK. All I was trying to do, and failing dismally was to bring to Britsmoothy's attention the possible carelessness of what he was posting on a public forum, but basing it on my local circumstances, and for that, I'm sorry. I'll not stick my neck out so much in future, you can be certain sure of that.

    And to Felix, a thank you for giving me something to think about with regard to my own shooting, and that of some friends in similar circumstances.

    Having not a single smoothbore gun of any kind, it seems to me to be time to change that, and make a small stand, remembering that here in UK there are no such things as 'shooters' rights.'
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  16. May 21, 2019 #96

    PluggedNickel

    PluggedNickel

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    To all my British friends here on MLF, I have read this entire thread. I do feel your pain. I hope you can get a good interpretation of the law concerning your smooth bore Britsmoothie. In the mean time please keep posting your hunting adventures on the forum, using your multiple shot loads.
    I no longer hunt myself, but the younger lads in the family do, and I enjoy their tales of hunting success, or even failure, as well as yours! Having your dog companion along is icing on the cake! I always hunted small game with dogs.
    Our gun rights are only an election or two away from being nonexistent here in the US. If the socialists ever gain control we are in big trouble.
    POTUS told UN to pack sand with their small arms treaty deal Obama was so eager to sign.
     
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  17. May 21, 2019 #97

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    Just for you PN.
    DSC00118.JPG

    B.
     
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  18. May 21, 2019 #98

    PluggedNickel

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  19. May 21, 2019 #99

    jrmflintlock

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    Good luck with your troubles Brit!!
    Things are not as secure on this side of the pond either!! I just got Denied to buy a shotgun for cowboy action shooting because there is a guy with the same name and birthday as mine, who just happens to be an illegal alien!! Now I have to Prove that I am who I am!!

    Guilty, until proven innocent!!
     
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  20. May 21, 2019 #100

    lyman54

    lyman54

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    I've always said a silent " thank you " to my Great grandfather and Grandfather for coming to Canada from Scotland and England. No disrespect meant. In 5 months we can kick this anti everything government out and our firearms will be safe. They are safe now in the hands of legal owners as far as crime goes but that escapes the minds of these monkeys in power at this time. Sorry for your troubles friend, hope things work out for you.
     
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