Going public!

Discussion in 'General Muzzleloading' started by Britsmoothy, May 15, 2019.

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  1. May 15, 2019 #1

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

    70 Cal.

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    Ok folks this may take some time but I have an issue with our licencing (Britain).

    It appears " police intelligence" as it was put to me by my firearms licensing liaison officer and also a police force from hundreds of miles away (leading me to believe in an informant) has been in touch with him to get in touch with me as they all believe I am breaking the law.
    This is perplexing as the shooting of a solid projectile from a smoothbore that ticks all the boxes so can be held on a shotgun licence can not use ammunition loaded with a single slug all ball.

    This is a copy of the law.
    iii) Shotgun cartridges
    2.53 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containing
    five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridges
    are covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificate
    authorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotgun
    cartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball or
    projectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate.

    As I have always understood this is that it is in relation to ammunition for breech loaders thus by default muzzleloaders are exempt.
    However my liaison officer says " I simply can not assume I can shoot solid ball from a muzzleloader".
    That is very perplexing indeed. To me that means if something in law is not restricting something I still can not do it!!
    Lots of humour could be written on that bases on a wide range of topics!

    Any way it looks like I am being watched!
    Good for a self acclaimed free country!
    It appears and I hope I am wrong that mail for on line comps here have not made their destination! This leads me to believe they have been intercepted by monitoring conversations on here by me.

    So it looks like I have to stop using ball and stick to shot.
    For years I have applied for a patch ball rifle to be added to my firearms certificate but they will not allow it for hunting! I have had and can have a breech loader that can hurl a bullet for miles but a ball long rifle that struggles to go 1000 yards errrrr no!

    Then after finding a loop hole in the law regarding smoothbores muzzleloaders am jumped on for assuming! Assuming what? Assuming I can hunt a rabbit thus or enter a postal match!

    I never realised just how evil a criminal I really am but I am so glad my hard earned taxes are going to the prevention of serious crime!
    I can forsee me losing my licenses soon and won't it make the British public so much safer!

    So there you have folks, modern Britain hasn't changed much at all!

    B.
     
    Bon Sauvage and Shot deer like this.
  2. May 15, 2019 #2

    Ames

    Ames

    Ames

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    The horned toad says we should go to Mexico.
    That stinks!:mad:
    Come to the sunny side of the pond. There's a real nice home down the road here with 50 acres for sale. Hand made cherry cabinets and a lot of deer. A few bear mixed in. Snowshoe hare too but you cant shoot cottontails. And you could shoot your entire collection right out your own back door. Restrictions on shot size for turkey and minimum caliber for deer, but you can live with those common sense sizes you would have reached for anyway.
     
  3. May 15, 2019 #3

    dragnetbill

    dragnetbill

    dragnetbill

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    Nate,
    Did your L.O. state flat out that you are violating the law? Or, as you write, did he merely state that you should not "assume" that what you do is legal (in other words, he doesn't really know either; but hey, there has been a complaint....)?
    It would seem to me that if their interpretation of that law is correct owning any round ball that exceeds .36 would require the higher license. And, for heaven's sake, whatever you do don't get caught celebrating any Royal holiday with the discharge of a powder and wadding only load; that would undoubtedly scare the local birds.........and well, there you go, another violation.
    Bloody rot, I say.
     
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  4. May 15, 2019 #4

    Treestalker

    Treestalker

    Treestalker

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    ! 1. You dirty little boy! You know better than to go 'assumptin'! 2. Big Brother is watching us all! 3. King John Lackland would love it. ( Hard to believe I'm supposed to be a direct descendent of his). 4. Looks like it's time to ban Liason officers. 5. Although like Ames I would welcome you here, I'm afraid it would only be a post- ponement of the inevitable. Many Americans in power care only about their own wealth accumulation and in so doing allow corruption in government to grow, with the usual dire consequences for individual liberty. (I'm going to protest the interference of material for your hunting stories that we enjoy here, as soon as I can get my Cadillac started to go get some stamps with my welfare check.)
     
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  5. May 15, 2019 #5

    smo

    smo

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    Sorry to hear about the confusion Brits.

    It’s kinda’ like what I ran into when I ask on a Public Forum, about using a flint broadhead for deer hunting ....

    There was disagreement between the responding Wardens on what was legal and what wasn’t.

    Our State law basically says it has too be a sharpened head ...

    The Internet is a great tool, however it can be a double edged sword..

    Sorry too hear of your troubles...
     
    Britsmoothy likes this.
  6. May 15, 2019 #6

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    Be very careful what you write, these are public forums and can be used against you. Lol. Seems very odd for sure as you have explained it, perhaps something is being missed?
    Things are also far tighter here in Canada with gun laws than in most (if not all) the US states, but not even close to what you all face!
    Walk
     
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  7. May 15, 2019 #7

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

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    Hope ever thing works out for you. It just shows that guns laws have nothing to do with public safety, has ever thing to do with taking our guns from us. Like Walkingeagle said, write carefully.
     
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  8. May 15, 2019 #8

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    To shoot a single projectile - ball or slug - from your smooth-bore gun here in yUK, you need to have a Section 1 Firearm Certificate.

    Five or more shot needs only a Shotgun Certificate. Buck and ball loads are illegal, as all shot must be of a uniform size.

    As for shooting live terrestrial game with your muzzle loader, providing that your FAC is conditioned for game shooting, you may shoot small species in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, but nothing at all in Scotland, where both m/v and m/e MUST reach or exceed the required figures. By small species, I mean Muntjac, Chinese Water deer, fox and, if your FAC is conditioned for pest control, those birds that are considered to be pests under the Act.

    I'm betting that you are as likely to be voted Queen of the May as you are to succeed in getting an FAC for live game shooting of larger terrestrial game, although we all know that billions of animals have fallen to muzzeloading rifles over the centuries.

    You CAN, however, use your m/l shotgun on clays and non-living targets against the sky, or rabbit/hare simulations along the ground.

    Legal Firearms and Ammunition For Shooting Deer in the United Kingdom
    Scotland
    Roe Deer - Bullet weight at least 50 grains, minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second and minimum muzzle energy of 1000 foot pounds.
    All other Deer Species - Bullet weight at least 100 grains, minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second and minimum muzzle energy of 1750 foot pounds.

    England and Wales
    Chinese Water Deer - Minimum calibre of no less than .220 inches, muzzle energy no less than 1000 foot pounds and bullet weight no less than 50 grains.
    Muntjac - Minimum calibre of no less than .220 inches, muzzle energy no less than 1000 foot pounds and bullet weight no less than 50 grains.
    All other Deer Species - Minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds.

    Northern Ireland
    Chinese Water Deer - Minimum calibre of .220, minimum muzzle energy of 1000 foot pounds and a minimum bullet weight of 50 grains.
    Muntjac - Minimum calibre of .220, minimum muzzle energy of 1000 foot pounds and a minimum bullet weight of 50 grains.
    All other Deer Species - Minimum calibre of .236 inches, minimum bullet weight of 100 grains and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds.


    NB. All bullets must deform or expand on impact, this is a legal requirement.
     
  9. May 15, 2019 #9

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    Thanks all.
    I don't think I have missed anything.
    The only special provision mentioned for muzzleloaders is that the barrel length is to be calculated from the ignition point.

    I have no doubt that they are trying to close the door on using a muzzleloader this way on a shotgun license however they also despite there being no law banning the use of a rifle for hunting they will not issue a firearm licence for such!
    Go figure!
    B.
     
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  10. May 15, 2019 #10

    Brokennock

    Brokennock

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    Good heavens. I'm dizzy just trying to sort through all that. Time to hire a lawyer Brits, fight to keep what you have. I'm very sorry you have to be dealing with this. Please keep us informed of any updates.
     
  11. May 15, 2019 #11

    Kilted Cowboy

    Kilted Cowboy

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    Glad I don't live in jolly old England.
    Coming to America if we do not stay vigilant!
     
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  12. May 15, 2019 #12

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    My liaison officer tried to convince me on the phone that they are not even accurate and cheaply made garbage such as pedersoli are more trouble than they are worth (his words).

    What hope is there......
     
  13. May 15, 2019 #13

    jackley

    jackley

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    Sorry to hear of your troubles. I don't know anything about all your rules and regs over there. But I hope it works out for the best. Hang in there!

    Jerry
     
  14. May 15, 2019 #14

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

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    What is a liaison officer, a game warden? Also what is a Chinese water deer????
     
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  15. May 15, 2019 #15

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

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    I think that by the rules-of-grammar, the Queen's grammar btw, that since there is no second paragraph, THEN the entire two sentences are referring to fixed ammunition, and not to components, which a single lead ball, obviously is, and thus is not covered by this regulation.

    LD
     
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  16. May 15, 2019 #16

    Col. Batguano

    Col. Batguano

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    Without knowing your laws and regulations, I would suppose there is a form of an appeal process for you. If I were you, I would get a copy of the law and related cases and do my reading. Then research places where your intended item has been adjudicated. Are you a member of a shooting club? Big shooting clubs like Bisley may have some resources for you that may be of some help if you aren't in one that has them. I suspect they've been through this sort of thing before. So the long and short of it is that I wouldn't take the first no for an answer by an individual LEO that it is the definitive one. They are often ill-trained, and make their own personal assumptions as to what is, and is not legal.
     
  17. May 15, 2019 #17

    Robby

    Robby

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    Well, I hope it all works out for you Brit, and in your favor. Many gun owners on this side of the drift are complacent and contribute nothing in defense of our God given right to keep and bear arms. As New York is looking more and more like Olde York many here are in a self-induced coma and refuse to wake up.
    God Bless.
    Robby
     
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  18. May 15, 2019 #18

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    The liaison officer comes and inspects the mandatory secure gun storage and conducts other investigations such as land for hunting on or speaking to a shooting club committee etc.

    Here is lots of info on Chinese water deer :)
    https://www.bds.org.uk/index.php/advice-education/species/chinese-water-deer

    B.
     
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  19. May 15, 2019 #19

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

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    Brit:
    It sounds to me like someone, in order to save the rabbits and squirrels has reported your actions. Anti-hunters will go to all lengths to help their cause.

    On the off chance that it is against the law to shoot a single projectile from your smoothbore, perhaps they did you a service.
    It would have been more than painful to have had a warden or law enforcement officer arrest you for shooting your gun illegally.

    That said, buy a bag of #1, 2, 3, or 4 shot and load your little smooth bore up with 1/2 to 3/4 ounces of it. At the ranges you shoot most of your game, that should do the job quite nicely. Admittedly, it won't be as sporting as shooting them with a single ball but blame it on poorly written laws.

    More importantly, you'll be complying with the law and whoever reported your hunting will lose their war against you. You will still be hunting. :)

    I also think the idea of looking for trials that involved shooting single projectiles from a smooth bore muzzleloader might be helpful. You can't be the only person that has faced this issue and undoubtedly a few went to a formal trial.
    If you find one, hopefully the decision was in the favor of the shooter.
     
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  20. May 15, 2019 #20

    Britsmoothy

    Britsmoothy

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    Thanks Zonie, sound advice.

    B.
     

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