Fullstocked Hawkens

[Ames]

I think I need a little more knowledge on these than I can come up with myself. :idunno:
The original Hawkens were full stocked,yes? Then came into half stocked some years later, the ones you see and love and are copied and imitated and Italian and.....not going to start that argument on here. Again.
So my question is....when they started with the original full stocks, and IF they used keys, not pins, did they use the oval escutcheons inlayed or just run the keys against the wood? Were those inlays only used on the later half stocks?
Any pics of old original full stocks would be of great help.
I'm setting myself up to tackle one this winter. Would like to keep it H.C. as best I can. Thank you in advance.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The full stock Hawken that I am aware of, is the full stock rifle built by Sam Hawken when he was in Xenia, Ohio. This is a rifle with mostly Lancaster and Maryland rifle attributes. It certainly did not look like one of the later Plains rifles with a full stock.

 

[Ames]

Yes. That's the one. Any pics or links?

 

[longcruise]

I'm not sure if we could refer to that rifle as what we commonly accept as a Hawken in the sense of the plains rifles built in St. Louis. But I'm sure not going to open that can of worms either. :haha:

I decided that if I ever build a fullstock flint plains "Hawken" rifle, I'm just going to call it a Plains rifle and save myself a beating. :wink:

 

[rich pierce]

Full stock and half stock J&S and S Hawken rifles were made early and late. It’s not simple. Often, escutcheon plates around keys on full stock Hawken rifles were rectangular with little arcs cut out at the corners.

 

[plmeek]

Like Rich says. Lots of variation.

Surviving full stock Hawken rifles from the J&S period tend to be plain and often don't have barrel key escutcheons.

Surviving S. Hawken full stock rifles can be plain or fancy--with or without barrel key escutcheons.

Note: the full stock S. Hawken above is the only surviving Hawken St. Louis mountain rifle that was originally made in flint and later converted to percussion. It was made in the 1850's.

Not the best picture, but the rifle above is the Kennett Hawken in the Ralph Foster Museum at the School of the Ozarks.

Here is a close-up of one of its barrel key escutcheons. The head of the key is shaped in a "S" scroll that mimics the escutcheon.

Most of the Hawken full stock rifles have square cheek-pieces, but one of the J&S Hawken rifles above has a beaver tail cheek-piece and the Smithsonian and the Kennett Hawken both have beaver tail cheek-pieces. Also, most full stock Hawken rifles have one-piece patent breech plugs, but again the Smithsonian and the Kennett Hawken rifles are exceptions with hook breeches.

Charles E. Hanson, Jr. in The Hawken Rifle: Its place In History estimates the prior to 1850 or in the J&S period, that the majority of Hawken rifles purchased by the fur companies and mountain men were full stock rifles. Hanson tabulated all the orders and sales receipts he could find in surviving fur company documents for Hawken rifles and the prices paid and concluded that as many a two thirds were full stock and one third half stock (Hanson 1979: 49).

If you are considering buying a kit, I would highly recommend Don Stith's full stock Hawken kit. He is the only one that has the early J&S period trigger guard like on three of the four J&S rifles shown above.

The next best option is Track's kit that looks like this.

I don't recommend this other kit that Track has for a flint full stock.

The butt plate is not right and the angle of the line of the comb isn't correct causing the nose of the comb to be almost nonexistent.

Phil Meek

 

[Ames]

Thank you. That's more info than I could find on my own in a week. :bow:

 

[BillinOregon]

Wow, Phil, what a wonderfully educational post. Many thanks. If this forum had stickies, I'd vote for one for this one.

 

[nhmoose]

Wow! super post. :hatsoff:

Thanks Phil for it.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I don't recommend this other kit that Track has for a flint full stock.

The butt plate is not right and the angle of the line of the comb isn't correct causing the nose of the comb to be almost nonexistent.

Phil Meek

Well it may have PC or HC correctness issues, but dang that's a pretty piece of firewood.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good pics, good info. Thanks.
I've seen that Kennet at School of the Ozarks. You are right, getting good pics through the glass there is difficult.

 

[tenngun]

Hanson said that full stocks were $.50 less then half stocks. There is no 1:1 transfer of prices from then to now. Some things were higher cost in terms of hours worked to buy, some things cheaper. However you can buy a good Hawken repo for $2500-3000, back then about $25.00. That made $.50 about $50.00. :hmm:

 

[VJM]

Kinda puts the cost of that 3K custom rifle in perspective.

 

[tenngun]

Near a months wages more or less, then or now.

 

[Ames]

Well, I understood all the arguments before I stepped off the curb with this subject. Didn't want to start things up over whats authentic and whats not about the gun as a whole, just curious about the inlays. And now I see how much they varied. And the butt plate. And the comb.
Although I could go down the authenticity road, I'm going to listen, this time, to the advice that pops up all the time on here. "It's your gun, build what you like".
I will have to call it a full stocked plains rifle so not to upset some if I don't get the butt or comb right for history. And it will be full stocked in cherry with iron to make me happy. Love the combo cherry and iron. Flint and a 54. That's the build what you like rearing its head again. This will be my moose gun if I ever win that lottery.
This will be my last gun build. Thank you for the posts, pictures and the schooling, gentlemen.

 

[plmeek]

Hanson said that full stocks were $.50 less then half stocks. There is no 1:1 transfer of prices from then to now. Some things were higher cost in terms of hours worked to buy, some things cheaper. However you can buy a good Hawken repo for $2500-3000, back then about $25.00. That made $.50 about $50.00. :hmm:

tenngun,
I respectively suggest you go back a check your source on the $.50 difference between the price of a Hawken full stock and half stock rifle.

Hanson had a hard time determining the type of rifle that was being referred to in the old records. For example, an order from Bent & St. Vrain in 1839 listed 4 rifles at $38.00 and one at $24.00 without any other description detail. Assuming the half stock is the more expensive, then in this instance, the full stock is 37% less than the half stock in 1839.

Another order in 1841 specified:

4 Halfstock Rifles $140.00
1 Whole Stock Triger Rifle 26.00

Full stock 26% less than the half stock in 1841.

This is the basis for assuming in the 1839 order, the $38.00 rifles were half stock and the $24.00 rifle was a full stock.

In 1855, P. Chouteau, Jr. & Co. placed an order with William S. Hawken (Sam's son) for half dozen half mounted rifles at $25.00 and half dozen Full Stock at $18.00. Full stock 28% less than the half stock in 1855.

Hanson did observe that the prices for the most expensive rifle declined over time from the $38.00 range in the late 1830's to the $25.00 range in the late 1840's and 1850's. He assumed the higher priced rifles were half stock because they normally had a hooked patent breech while the full stock rifles normally had a fixed, semi-patent breech. Fabricating the iron rib for a half stock may have also increased its cost.

...Although I could go down the authenticity road, I'm going to listen, this time, to the advice that pops up all the time on here. "It's your gun, build what you like".

I will have to call it a full stocked plains rifle so not to upset some if I don't get the butt or comb right for history. And it will be full stocked in cherry with iron to make me happy. Love the combo cherry and iron. Flint and a 54. That's the build what you like rearing its head again. This will be my moose gun if I ever win that lottery...

Ames,

I was curious what you decided to do. Thanks for giving us an update.

The key word is "flint". There is no one presently alive that has ever seen a "J&S Hawken, St. Louis" flintlock rifle. That means you can build whatever you want in flint and nobody can say it isn't correct. Everybody's opinion has equal merit.

Phil Meek