Frizzen hardness question

[LRB]

Bob Roller's locks always spark well. Runs in my mind he hardens the frizzens considerably softer than Rc 60-ish, maybe in the Rc 40's. Ask him

You are the metallurgist, but 40's Rc as you know is in the spring temper range. Not very difficult to cut or do light finishing with a file. I don't think a frizzen that soft would last very long under good flints. Just MHO. I have always found Jim Chambers advice worked well by using a temper heat of 375°f, up to 400°f. If you find 375°f is too hard, you can always re-temper a little higher, but you can't change it if too soft without re-hardening and starting over again.

 

[JCKelly]

I have no record of how hard Roller's frizzens are, save that they are lower than RC 60.
Also recall believing, if not proving, that a good way to surface a worn frizzen is to cut the appropriate size piece from an old wood saw blade, and "soft solder" it to the old frizzen face. The metal is about 0,7% carbon, hardened to the high RC 40's, maybe RC 50-ish. Saw teeth may be sharpened with a file.
Now I am an Elderly Geezer, so Soft Solder to me is 63% tin, 37% lead and melts completely at pretty much exactly 361F (183C). I am quite unfamiliar with the modern solders developed since we learned what serious brain problems can develop from using lead.
Indeed, that is likely why I write such unbelievable and unpopular things on this site. One of my favorite childhood toys was a lead soldier casting kit. Boy did I melt a lotta lead with that thing. Dad cast bullets so there was allus lead available.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
RCs in the 40s are much too soft. As LRB wrote that is tempering for springs, which means a temper at about 700-750 degrees. I will ask Bob Roller what hardness he used. He is a good friend. In the meantime here is an example of an extraordinary performing lock that I modified and tuned. It is a Chambers round-faced English lock. I polished all interior and exterior surfaces, weakened the very strong mainspring a little such that the force to open the frizzen is about 35-40% of the peak force to bring the flintcock back from rest to full cock. The frizzen was case hardened in charcoal for 2 hours at 1550 degrees, and the face tempered at 375-390 degrees. The rifle with this lock fired 671 consecutive rounds without a misfire or hang fire. In that time it used 10 flints. The only real time maintenance was cleaning fouling off the flint, frizzen and pan every 10 shots or so, and occasionally picking the vent hole (lined by a Chamber White Lightning liner"). The photos show firing the lock with a sharp flint, then turning that flint around to the dull side, then coating the frizzen and flint with greasy inletting black, and finally inserting a rounded piece of quartz from my driveway in the jaws.

I

In every case, it would have ignited priming just fine.

dave

 

[toadboy65]

I really appreciate the detailed information. It is a bit difficult to try to fabricate these sorts of things only by reading books and looking at pictures, with little interaction with actual flintlocks. "671 consecutive rounds without a misfire" is awfully impressive.

I suppose there is an ideal striking surface, which would be a certain composition of steel, of a specific hardness, and of an ideal roughness of finish. If I could manage to reduce those to a series of numbers, I could probably do a decent job of duplicating them consistently.

 

[LRB]

I really appreciate the detailed information. It is a bit difficult to try to fabricate these sorts of things only by reading books and looking at pictures, with little interaction with actual flintlocks. "671 consecutive rounds without a misfire" is awfully impressive.

I suppose there is an ideal striking surface, which would be a certain composition of steel, of a specific hardness, and of an ideal roughness of finish. If I could manage to reduce those to a series of numbers, I could probably do a decent job of duplicating them consistently.

As Dave mentioned earlier, the angle of the flint strike is also of importance, for spark and also flint life, and resistance given by the frizzen spring can be a factor.

 

[FlinterNick]

As Dave mentioned earlier, the angle of the flint strike is also of importance, for spark and also flint life, and resistance given by the frizzen spring can be a factor.

one of way of understanding how a flint striker works is with fire making.

I taught my kids how to use a steel striker at their YMCA camp. They were hitting the flint with the steel as hard as possible getting only a few sparks here and there.

When striking a flint with a hand striker its not the force or speed of your blow that creates the hottest sparks, its the angle at which you shave off / slice off the steel with the flint,

 

[chiller]

In the past, I was an History Reenactor for the French & Indian War. I would fire around 100 rounds (blanks) in my Brown Bess 12 to 14 weekends out of the year for 12 years. After ten years, my frizzen was showing signs of losing spark. At most Reenactments, there were several portable blacksmiths selling their wears. I went to one I was familiar with, and he rehardened my frizzen using some type of hardening powder. Sometimes I find its better to let the experts do the work. Later, I purchased a replacement frizzen for my Bess and a main lock spring, two items that if you have an issue with can ruin a weekend far away from home without spare's to be had. Sold the Bess several years ago, and lately found both the replacement frizzen and spring. Do not know what I am going to do with them since the Bess is gone.

 

[Cornbread]

I’ve beven watching and reading this thread because I MIGHT have an issue with a frizzen on my Dixie TMR.
With it being such a small caliber rifle and thus using a small flint, can I ever hope to expect a shower of sparks like those in previous posts with musket sized flints?

I recently purchased some French flints in 1/2” width to see and the one in the hammer now does lay about 1/16” away from the frizzen and has the proper angle to the frizzen face with the help of a small piece of leather added under the flint and wrapped. (I do have a couple good gouges on the frizzen face but I think those were there from the previous owner.) Regardless, I get sparks that hit the pan but NOTHING like the 4th of July fireworks posted earlier.

As long as it sparks and ignites powder - then I don’t mind but it makes me think Plan B might be a new frizzen if there should be more spark output.

James

 

[Relic shooter]

Hi,
Here is an example with over 200 years of wear although the frizzen may have a replacement sole, but it was done long ago. It had a very hard sole when it was new made, a feature common on many original locks.

Keep in mind that wear on the frizzen is not only a function of hardness but also the geometry of the lock and the angle at which the flint hits the steel.
dave

That vintage lock is a beauty, appears to have a gold lined pan !!
Relic shooter
Idaho

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I wrote Bob Roller a quick note asking if he remembered what Rockwell hardness he tempered his frizzens to. He wrote back that he never tested them for hardness, just made sure they sparked well.

That Mortimer lock is a beauty and dates from the 1780s. It has all the bells and whistles employed at that time. None of the locks I showed sparking use musket flints. They are either the same or slightly larger than those you should use on Siler locks.

dave

 

[rich pierce]

When frizzens are soled or re-faced with saw blade steel, the common practice is to re-harden the sole in the process. It is not used with its current saw hardness or temper.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hi,
Please remember my advice about tempering the toe and pivot arm at a higher temp. It will save you tears.

dave

Thanks Dave. That's a very good point

LD

 

[Coinneach]

In the past, I was an History Reenactor for the French & Indian War. I would fire around 100 rounds (blanks) in my Brown Bess 12 to 14 weekends out of the year for 12 years. After ten years, my frizzen was showing signs of losing spark. At most Reenactments, there were several portable blacksmiths selling their wears. I went to one I was familiar with, and he rehardened my frizzen using some type of hardening powder. Sometimes I find its better to let the experts do the work. Later, I purchased a replacement frizzen for my Bess and a main lock spring, two items that if you have an issue with can ruin a weekend far away from home without spare's to be had. Sold the Bess several years ago, and lately found both the replacement frizzen and spring. Do not know what I am going to do with them since the Bess is gone.

The hardening powder could have been "Casenit"

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I had a North Star flint lock trade gun. The original by Curley Gostomski. For thirty years, I shot that gun in competitions during the summer, hunting seasons in the fall, always used English flint and never noticed any scratches on the frizzen. There is hardening and there is tempering. POS Thompson Center frizzens often needed to have carbon added to the metal in case hardening before tempering.. It rarely does any good to just temper a frizzen.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Did anybody in this thread just recommend tempering? Of course the steel must be hardened first! anyway, Bob Roller wrote me that he heated his frizzens to a straw color after hardening, which would produce an RC hardness of 60+. .

dave

 

[Coinneach]

I had a North Star flint lock trade gun. The original by Curley Gostomski. For thirty years, I shot that gun in competitions during the summer, hunting seasons in the fall, always used English flint and never noticed any scratches on the frizzen. There is hardening and there is tempering. POS Thompson Center frizzens often needed to have carbon added to the metal in case hardening before tempering.. It rarely does any good to just temper a frizzen.

I was good friend of "the old grey Badger" and bought one of his NS FL Trade Guns , he brought it with him when he stayed at our place in Australia in 1988.
His Trade guns were good value and as authentic as it got, RIP Curley.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Did anybody in this thread just recommend tempering? Of course the steel must be hardened first! anyway, Bob Roller wrote me that he heated his frizzens to a straw color after hardening, which would produce an RC hardness of 60+. .

dave

Straw would be around 300 degrees ?

 

[LRB]

I have no record of how hard Roller's frizzens are, save that they are lower than RC 60.
Also recall believing, if not proving, that a good way to surface a worn frizzen is to cut the appropriate size piece from an old wood saw blade, and "soft solder" it to the old frizzen face. The metal is about 0,7% carbon, hardened to the high RC 40's, maybe RC 50-ish. Saw teeth may be sharpened with a file.
Now I am an Elderly Geezer, so Soft Solder to me is 63% tin, 37% lead and melts completely at pretty much exactly 361F (183C). I am quite unfamiliar with the modern solders developed since we learned what serious brain problems can develop from using lead.
Indeed, that is likely why I write such unbelievable and unpopular things on this site. One of my favorite childhood toys was a lead soldier casting kit. Boy did I melt a lotta lead with that thing. Dad cast bullets so there was allus lead available.

In my part of the country , years ago, common soft solder was 50/50 lead tin. 60/40, roughly what you mentioned, was used by people working with stained glass because of it's low temp melt. I have annealed file steel, then ground and bent it to be a close fit to the worn frizzen face. Then I re-hardened the piece, cleaned it well, and soldered it to the frizzen with 60/40. The heat from the soldering also tempered the file steel half sole. Two processes combined into one operation. Seemed to work very well. 60/40 is so close to what you mentioned, they are probably one and the same. 60/40 had a melt point supposedly rated around 370°f. Tempering is usually best when the steel can be soaked awhile at the desired temp, but that combined process seemed to work well enough.

 

[FlinterNick]

The hardening powder could have been "Casenit"

There’s no more casenit in the market, most case hardening powders by Cherry Red (has no carbon in it) and Brownells are not very effective on things other than screws.

Track of the Wolf’s hardening compound is pretty good for frizzens, that’s what I use.

The Rifle Shoppe Owner recommended peach Pitt charcol For case hardening as peaches contain natural cyanide. This would be done of course in a case or pack.

 

[LRB]

Straw would be around 300 degrees ?

I would think straw would be somewhere between 350 and 400. I would guess closer to 375 or a tad more. Also, is it to be light, barely straw, or yellow straw, or dark yellow straw?
When judging hardness by colors, the steel should absolutely clean from all oils, including body oil from your hands. Even then, your judgement can vary from ambient light changes, Different steels at the same heat color can vary some in hardness levels according to carbon content, and other alloys.