Flintlocks and Black Powder

[Stone]

I think if you look at the society around us, you will see that humans have made a great effort to, and done a good job of, proving him wrong.

While I agree that stupidity has become the new Norm, one can always hope

 

[William Lincoln]

People get into the BP sport believing that everyone starts equal and has the
same mental preparedness. At least many do. The fact is there is a learning curve.
Because we are dealing with materials that are potentially explosive you do not
start with max anything. You "work-up" your loads finding the best combination.
This is a measured process of careful observation. You can do this because the
guns are strongly constructed- even older ones. Go back 50 years and study
the old loading charts and manuals. 4f was commonly charted for pistols in
fairly heavy charges. The advisors here, such as Britsmoothy and others are
giving good advice that results from a lot of experience and mistakes along
the way. This forum exists to allow the mix of all of the accumulated wisdom.
Disagreements will occur and I'm glad they do ,since they give spice to life.

 

[Joemolf]

Prove it.
We have been waiting for definitive proof of this for years.
We have seen someone using 4f as a main charge for quite some time now with no I'll effect in several guns.

We have been asking for proof of this, "you'll blow your gun up," stuff for a long time. Not one shred of evidence has been presented.

I’m no expert but I think your success comes from the way you set your patch and ball; that is adequately compressed and consistent. I think if you’re not careful in setting the ball and compressing the powder you could have a problem; why guys mark there ram rod.
Though I think if you have fouling and don’t set or compress the ball consistently you can have a problem with anything. So it’s about knowing your rifle and always exercise care. I never tried it in a metallic cartridge I generally use 2 even 1 1/2. Once you compress it the powder is near solid. I don’t think you can get powder that tight in a muzzle loader though possible with a steel range rod. So if I was to ever use 4f as a main charge I’d be sure it was well compressed.

 

[okawbow]

I have always got better accuracy in my chunk guns with 2f powder. Even my .40 caliber table rifle is more consistent with 2f than 3f. In my turkey 12ga. I get the tightest and most consistent patterns with 1 1/2f. The gun is very light weight and recoil is much more tolerable than with 3f. I imagine the recoilwith 4f would be sharp and painful. I have killed lots of turkeys and other small game with standard loads of 1 1/2f out to 40 yards. Plenty of velocity there.

would 4f blow the gun up? Probably not, but I find coarser powder to work better for me. I do use 4f for prime, and don't find that I need to re prime unless its raining…and I don't hunt in the rain any more. I recently left my deer rifle primed with 4f for 3 days in cloudy, damp weather and it fired instantly at the end of the last day. The key is having a close fitting frizzen and pan, and keeping the lock area dry. Why waste good powder unless it gets wet?

 

[waksupi]

I'm aware of Keith's incident, and a couple others he had.
Where can I find this semi-auto pistol test?

It's in hickock45's videos.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

A long time ago I bought a powder flask in an antique shop in Inverary that had been found on the hill in a famous Red Deer staulking area of Argyle.It must have been lying outside for almost a century. When I finally had the top clean it was set for 75grns. When the top came off it was 1/2 full of a fine powder that compared to Swiss 1 and a few flakes of what prooved to be E.C..The Black powder was more than likely Curtiss & Harvey Fine Rifle.. 75 grns would equate to a Deer load for a lady or boy with a .451" Rifle of the period. I have used Black Silver 1 and Swiss 1 for most of my higher level comps and game for years. Still have 8 fingers ,2 thumbs,10 toes , both eyes but ears are a bit groggy (You WHAT did you say) from N/S shooting BREN guns without good ear protection.(1956/58).. The problem with No.1/4ffff is more than likely the Modern guns not the Powders !! OLD (VERY) DOG..

 

[cebusey]

The early matchlock shooters used black powder meal, dust essentially.
Muzzleloading still caught on!

I honestly think a lot of folks interpretation of what actually goes on in the breech is a little upside down.
Some seem to think higher breech pressure is bad. Why is it? At what point does it suddenly get bad? How can we shoot something without pressure. Who determines good pressure and bad pressure? Crazy notions giving birth to useless questions giving birth to fear but completely unfounded.
Do reasonable men here honestly believe that barrel makers have NOT tested their barrels? Would they not clearly state whether a certain powder type should not be used? Wait, they do! No smokeless type powder. But they don't do the same for 4f!
So what we have is some folk that are elevating themselves above their authority on the subject. They, without a shred of testing are propelling themselves as profits of doom in a vien attempt to impress others. This is obvious by their response when someone comes along and pokes a hole in their theory.
Why do manufacturers put a warning on their barrels BLACK POWDER ONLY?
The primary reason is that a muzzleloader of traditional design is open breeched. It by default has high pressure escaping via the nipple or vent. With the vast choice in speeds of smokeless a much higher pressure can get forced out of the vent. There is a clear risk of fragments of cap, nipple, frizzens and flints being dislodged and causing injury. IT IS NOT THE BARREL WILL BURST PRIMARILY.
For example. Many early breech loading shotguns with only blackpowder proof marks of all barrel types were subjected to nitro proof so as to use the new cartridges emerging on the market and we're successful. Why? Because the breech is sealed!
Sure you can blow a muzzleloader to bits with nitro powder but so can you also do the same to any firearm.
Fill a 50bmg case with bullseye and stand back!
In essence the barrel is not the worry. If its got blackpowder in it there is no concern, irrespective of granulation size.
The experiments have been done. Look up Sam Fadala for one resource. Look up them that have made all manner of firearms from screwed pipe fittings and NO I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT PRACTICE but it has been mentioned because it emphathises that the barrels on our muzzleloaders are not going to burst.
One other thing I don't get is, why is it OK to use 4f in a small pistol. Or revolver. Often with nipples pointing directly back at the shooter and of thinner chamber wall thickness its OK to use but somehow in a thicker barrelled long gun and of larger bore it becomes mysteriously dangerous!
If anything a larger bore causes a drop in pressure!

The other topsy-turvy notion is of how 4f verses 1f burns, flame fronts and all that blah blah. Some believe that because the larger grains burn slower it is somehow ideal. It's not!
What is ideal is consistency. For consistency we want all the charge alight as quick as possible preferably before added variables start via the projectile starting to move off. Talking in terms of nano seconds here the less variation in timings of complete combustion is crucial to consistency and consistent barrel harmonics. The longer it takes to reach complete combustion just opens the door to more variation in times, pressure development and quite possibly higher and irregular muzzle pressures. In short, most of us are thinking backwards on the subject!
The fact 4f increases breech pressure over courser grades is in fact ideal! It's perfect in fact! It's what we actually need and nothing to fear at all.
My finest grade powder, measured and with the help of zonie we determined was a mix of mostly 4f and some 3f. I have loaded it in a bess and heavy shot loads for years. A 20g (.63) upto 100gns. 12gs a plenty, flint and cap. No issues. Never ever shall I purchase anything courser than 3f again. It was terrible. I would rather use an airgun than that stuff!
Instead of fearing higher pressure from a normal loading procedure for a traditional muzzleloader I say embrace it. Why all the fear? No, why all the unfounded fear?
The only fear to respect when it comes to muzzleloading is a cavity. A gap between powder and ball. In that scenario it matters not one bit what granulation the powder is does it!

When Dupont Had a faux pas in 1969 or 70 - The only BP I could find was 4f. I shot it in a FL pistol, FL rifle and an 1858 Remington with never a problem and still have all of those firearms and the only problems i have had has been a broken sear spring on the FL rifle and a broken bolt spring on the Remington - none of which was due to the powder.

 

[Britsmoothy]

When Dupont Had a faux pas in 1969 or 70 - The only BP I could find was 4f. I shot it in a FL pistol, FL rifle and an 1858 Remington with never a problem and still have all of those firearms and the only problems i have had has been a broken sear spring on the FL rifle and a broken bolt spring on the Remington - none of which was due to the powder.

Amen. Observable and repeatable.
That is more evidence than the na sayers have provided thus far.
Thank you.

 

[Kodaman]

This thread has been most interesting. I've been a black powder shooter for a few decades but the safety discussion here prompted me to do 1 thing and to share 1 perspective. (1) Never used a leather cover for my frizzen and said to myself...good idea. Was about to sew up a little custom cover and I see an old leather glove on the workbench. After cutting off one of the finger stalls on the glove... frizzen cover competed 60 seconds later. (2) In reloading and shooting, I have always looked to stay in the mainstream. On my hunting rifles, I have always used 4F in the pan and 80-90 grains as a main charge. There is nothing as discouraging as hunting hard all day and then having a failure to fire when given an opportunity. Happened 1x and made me crazy. I change out the 4F pan powder sometimes as often as every hour on a wet day because I have observed the powder change its texture from moisture in the air. Would 3F absorb less moisture...probably. The other little practice I do is drop 20% of the main charge down the barrel with 3F followed by the remainder of the charge with 2F just thinking that the mixed powder load might have an edge in assuring ignition. Always works but probably meaningless.....might even consider 4F but it would probably run out of the touch hole.

 

[Erwan]

might even consider 4F but it would probably run out of the touch hole.

Don't forget to remove the pin before you pour the priming powder....

 

[Britsmoothy]

This thread has been most interesting. I've been a black powder shooter for a few decades but the safety discussion here prompted me to do 1 thing and to share 1 perspective. (1) Never used a leather cover for my frizzen and said to myself...good idea. Was about to sew up a little custom cover and I see an old leather glove on the workbench. After cutting off one of the finger stalls on the glove... frizzen cover competed 60 seconds later. (2) In reloading and shooting, I have always looked to stay in the mainstream. On my hunting rifles, I have always used 4F in the pan and 80-90 grains as a main charge. There is nothing as discouraging as hunting hard all day and then having a failure to fire when given an opportunity. Happened 1x and made me crazy. I change out the 4F pan powder sometimes as often as every hour on a wet day because I have observed the powder change its texture from moisture in the air. Would 3F absorb less moisture...probably. The other little practice I do is drop 20% of the main charge down the barrel with 3F followed by the remainder of the charge with 2F just thinking that the mixed powder load might have an edge in assuring ignition. Always works but probably meaningless.....might even consider 4F but it would probably run out of the touch hole.

If you plug the vent first it should not leak after loading.

 

[user 48702]

This is from the Schuetzen / Swiss Powder site

View attachment 112683

Funny, but that photo looks like piles of Black Cumin and Weed.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

And here in lies "the crux of the biscuit."

Those of us asking for evidence of blown up guns and injured people from the use of 4f as a main charge are not advocating using, "too much," or even, as much, of a powder charge.
We are not even telling people to use it, only that it is possible, done responsibly.

And you are quite correct about testing. One doesn't even need to blow up the barrels. Someone with access to the equipment to pressure test a few barrels, could easily do the test. But, I think at least one barrel would need to be tested to failure, both for dramatic effect and so we can see the pressure increases leading up to the point of failure, if any. Of course, to be fair, the same test should be done with 2f and 3f. But, this would get expensive, that is a lot of barrels, a lot of powder, and a lot of lead. Not to mention patches and/or wads and lube.
But man, would I love to be part of that. Regardless of end result, that would be a very interesting day.

Interesting I had a lot of discussions on my 577-500 no2 double barrel with Hall ( Ulfere) on British military forums. It’s made for a 440g bullet but he wanted to push it to full nitro 570g bullet. Both at 2150 ft :sec. Mine is nitro for black his BP only. The problem of our argument how do you make a test barrel of the same material as 1906 ,1885 or earlier discussions went on by email for over a year From Greaem Wrights book on double rifles he had found in uk the proof houses are running out of copper pills to pressure test their loads when these are used up how will testing be done , electronically we guess There are a good few pressure tests and tables on BP rifles which I can always copy to anyone nitro? Indeed I have below Nitro powders can be quite gentle like R15 with preserves under 10.1tons. (See table 570 g ) One I would like to try but not the nerve to do it yet I actually had mine stupidly reproofed for BP on the suggestion of the proof house , bonus it’s now a BP rifle ok for France without a license, it’s a long interesting subject enjoy

 

[Gordoncourtney]

And here in lies "the crux of the biscuit."

Those of us asking for evidence of blown up guns and injured people from the use of 4f as a main charge are not advocating using, "too much," or even, as much, of a powder charge.
We are not even telling people to use it, only that it is possible, done responsibly.

And you are quite correct about testing. One doesn't even need to blow up the barrels. Someone with access to the equipment to pressure test a few barrels, could easily do the test. But, I think at least one barrel would need to be tested to failure, both for dramatic effect and so we can see the pressure increases leading up to the point of failure, if any. Of course, to be fair, the same test should be done with 2f and 3f. But, this would get expensive, that is a lot of barrels, a lot of powder, and a lot of lead. Not to mention patches and/or wads and lube.
But man, would I love to be part of that. Regardless of end result, that would be a very interesting day.

Interesting I had a lot of discussions on my 577-500 no2 double barrel with Hall ( Ulfere) on British military forums. It’s made for a 440g bullet but he wanted to push it to full nitro 570g bullet. Both at 3150 ft :sec. Mine is nitro for black his BP only. The problem of our argument how do you make a test barrel of the same material as 1906 or 1885 discussions went on by email for over a year From Greaem Wrights book on double rifles he had found in uk the proof houses are running out of copper pills to test their loads There are a good few pressure tests and tables on BP rifles which I can always copy to anyone nitro? powders can be quite gentle like R15 with preserves under 12 tons. One I would like to try but not the nerve to do it yet I actually had mine stupidly reproofed for BP on the suggestion of the proof house , bonus it’s now a BP rifle ok for France without a license,

- Flintlocks and Black Powder

I did say that the Swiss N°1(4Fg) is not so good for a full load (I mean the choice), but it is perfectly usable in any type of arm : the charge will just lack oxygen between the grains and the powder will be a little more irregular and faster (more lively when ignited), but it is a shooting and hunting powder: it is written on it, and I have extensively tested it without swelling or bursting a barrel....
- https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/attachments/4fg-jpg.112002/
Discuss about danger of that powder don't have any sens : I use this, my wife use this, and we have all our fingers in good condition since 50 years of use (50 years ago we didn't use Swiss powder but only French)...

- Flintlocks and Black Powder

I did say that the Swiss N°1(4Fg) is not so good for a full load (I mean the choice), but it is perfectly usable in any type of arm : the charge will just lack oxygen between the grains and the powder will be a little more irregular and faster (more lively when ignited), but it is a shooting and hunting powder: it is written on it, and I have extensively tested it without swelling or bursting a barrel....
- https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/attachments/4fg-jpg.112002/
Discuss about danger of that powder don't have any sens : I use this, my wife use this, and we have all our fingers in good condition since 50 years of use (50 years ago we didn't use Swiss powder but only French)...

just looking I can see no pressure tables in Graeme Writes book for 4f There are only tables for 3Fg and 2Fg perhaps 4Fg is not available in Oz who knows. Generally we are looking at pressure loads around 11tons square in. Quite low for most guns I find it an interesting subject Seems Graeme has done more pressure testing on guns than anyone else, especially at Birmingham proof house admittedly it’s all on double rifles but much is on Black powder guns from 1850 I guess and double rifle barrels are relatively thin as they have a weight problem Enjoy

 

[Gordoncourtney]

In most states, a flintlock can be transported with a loaded barrel as long as the hammer is down and the frizzen is up. You can place a tooth pick in the touch hole which protects the main charge from ignition. Out in the field, you can use a leather boot over the frizzen.

I was reading in France you can carry a flintlock , in a vehicle I guess, but the flint must be removed Just an interesting comment I thought

 

[Stone]

Since this thread is titled Flintlocks and black powder, and since I am complete rookie, I seek some knowledge on the use of black powder. Keep in mind that I am a complete rookie so I am permitted a few more stupid questions. I can't wait to get more powder so I can go do a lot of practicing but for now, I have to save what I have for hunting.

I have read about using two different powders for a charge, one on top of the other. I am assuming that this is done to help ignition and promote the proper pressure to achieve a combined result of velocity and accuracy?

1. What would happen if the two powders (let's say 2F and 3F) were mixed, rather than layered?

Other unrelated questions:

1. I bought what I now know is a marketing mimic gun (Traditions Pa. Pellet) but I have to make the best of it. I was told to use 3F powder because 2F might bridge together preventing powder from getting down close enough to the touch hole. (see drawing) Does this make sense?
2. A gentleman who I believe to be an expert told me that "if he owned my gun" he would drill the two intersecting holes in the breech plug larger and then thread it for an aftermarket touch hole liner to ensure ignition. (see drawing) Does this make sense? Note the shoulder just inside the liner.

 

[mmb617]

I've been following this discussion for a reason. In my powder making I'm getting more 4f than I'll need if used just for pan priming. I'd figured that at some point when I have way too much I'd repress some of it. But now I'm thinking maybe I'll just use it as a reduced main charge.

I don't think that will be a problem based on my experience before I got a good set of screens. Prior to that I was having a lot of fines mixed in which kept the powder from flowing properly but didn't cause any shooting problem.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Since this thread is titled Flintlocks and black powder, and since I am complete rookie, I seek some knowledge on the use of black powder. Keep in mind that I am a complete rookie so I am permitted a few more stupid questions. I can't wait to get more powder so I can go do a lot of practicing but for now, I have to save what I have for hunting.

I have read about using two different powders for a charge, one on top of the other. I am assuming that this is done to help ignition and promote the proper pressure to achieve a combined result of velocity and accuracy?

1. What would happen if the two powders (let's say 2F and 3F) were mixed, rather than layered?

Other unrelated questions:

1. I bought what I now know is a marketing mimic gun (Traditions Pa. Pellet) but I have to make the best of it. I was told to use 3F powder because 2F might bridge together preventing powder from getting down close enough to the touch hole. (see drawing) Does this make sense?
2. A gentleman who I believe to be an expert told me that "if he owned my gun" he would drill the two intersecting holes in the breech plug larger and then thread it for an aftermarket touch hole liner to ensure ignition. (see drawing) Does this make sense? Note the shoulder just inside the liner.

View attachment 112773

I guess you are referring to duplex loads. In Graeme Wrights book on double rifles he’s the only gentleman that’s gone into detail on duplex loads he mixed smokeless and Bp it seems. Probably a world expert especially on BP and nitro rifles I trust it’s ok to display parts of his book thus promoting the importance of his work to double rifles

 

[Erwan]

I was reading in France you can carry a flintlock , in a vehicle I guess, but the flint must be removed Just an interesting comment I thought

Hi Gordoncourtney,

Many thanks for all your posts and I wish you a very happy new year.

Well, you can or I must say "You could" because everything is more and more difficult, theoretically you can carry any kind of weapon in your camper.......... if you have a valid reason: in fact between home and the shooting club, competition or other match with invitation....
For this category of weapon you can theoretically do it (classified in category "D": free) like all the BP weapons except the pistols like the ROA now in category "B" (prohibited, but don't ask me why): in France all that is BP and before the year 1900 is free except exceptions, for example a Colt peacemaker until December 31, 1900 is free, but January 1, 1901 it is prohibited...
France is the country and the mother of all administrations and rules, laws that change every day: what was good yesterday is maybe bad today...
I think that one can carry a flint without flint but it is subject to interpretation in the place and in the date and according to the police that one will meet...

For the last five years, we became crazy with those new laws and rules...

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Hi Gordoncourtney,

Many thanks for all your posts and I wish you a very happy new year.

Well, you can or I must say "You could" because everything is more and more difficult, theoretically you can carry any kind of weapon in your camper.......... if you have a valid reason: in fact between home and the shooting club, competition or other match with invitation....
For this category of weapon you can theoretically do it (classified in category "D": free) like all the BP weapons except the pistols like the ROA now in category "B" (prohibited, but don't ask me why): in France all that is BP and before the year 1900 is free except exceptions, for example a Colt peacemaker until December 31, 1900 is free, but January 1, 1901 it is prohibited...
France is the country and the mother of all administrations and rules, laws that change every day: what was good yesterday is maybe bad today...
I think that one can carry a flint without flint but it is subject to interpretation in the place and in the date and according to the police that one will meet...

For the last five years, we became crazy with those new laws and rules...

That’s brill to hear from you Erwan I was just looking at property in Brittany I just got sent but it’s all in millions tv program last night Spain wants Scottish shell fish , but trying to get it there is a nightmare of paperwork around 400 documents per lorry. I think the EU needed Brexit to shake them up, my kids are so angry we are not in the EU they are skiing in Italy canceld in France. When will it end I don’t mind rejoining if things were different Germany’s seems to be getting too much power and everybody wants to come to England but it’s still a green and pleasant land but so small. My son was amazed at the size of France driving on empty roads for hours. I absolutely loved it ad ghe a is LH drive.

I often read the french gun laws , ours should have been the same , But it’s not safe to shoot rifles in most of uk just too many people here. Shotguns are fine but the police just did not want me to have them at 78. I dare not complain or they could take my S58 obsolete guns as well. I am not the only one either . Better not put what I think in writing. I guess I can pay to hunt overseas but a bit of an effort

trying to get back to France in Rapido love the Airs and the people on the west coast. Thing they got fed up with motorhomes on the med coast as they were not too friendly and no Airs. Many friends have french property but cannot get there , biggest complaint you have had poor weather the last two years inland from Bordeaux Love to hunt in France with one of my double rifles One friend who just sold a house “ Abby du Val” had no trouble hunting in the hills with shotguns. I must get some big lumps of flint to start napping again.I can always post some chips into you , They have good stuff up in the chalk quarries in Norfolk

I must apologise to the other readers for rambling on but just so pleased to hear from you I chat email with Tommy in Maine and Jan in Georgia but I think it’s Ironoxide in Poland I haven’t heard from for a while

I wish you well and great new year. Gordon and joan Many thanks for your comments really kind of you