Flashguard

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Oswald

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What is the correct flash guard for a NW Trade gun?

Also what is a good solvent for the pan and lock area?
 

Grenadier1758

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The solvent question is easy. Well, not really. Any cleaning solution you use to clean the bore will be a good solvent for the lock and pan. Its also difficult in that we all have our version of the best solvent. At the range, I like rubbing alcohol as it is cheap, it dissolves black powder fouling and evaporates quickly so the moisture doesn't contaminate the next shot. Water or spot at the range also works. I have also just used the pan brush to wipe out most of the fouling. A dry patch will also wipe away most of the fouling. When are you looking to clean the lock area and pan?

Flash guards are another matter. In the historical context, flash guards did not exist. In the modern context, one would either use a flash guard that uses an external bolt in the frizzen or is fastened to the pan. Who made the lock for your North West (NW) trade gun? A call to the maker of the lock might provide the answer. I have a lock that does not have an external frizzen bolt. Adding a flash guard required milling a flat area in the bridle of the frizzen and drilling and tapping for a bolt to hold the flash guard.
 
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Loyalist Dave

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There are a bunch of variations...
What Mike is talking about is often called a "Siler" flash guard as the screw head for the pan is internal to the lock so you need a longer than stock screw, and a nut to fit the bit of the screw that extends outside of the lock, thus:
SILER LOCK FLASH GUARD.jpg

For a NW Trade Gun, you probably have a frizzen screw with an external head, and so can use a basic musket flash guard:
BESS FLASH GUARD.jpg

Now rifles often have a an internal frizzen screw, as Siler isn't the only lock that has such. Sometimes a musket flash guard is long enough for you to use the frizzen spring screw instead:
RIFLE USING BASIC FLASH GUARD.jpg
My rifle has the flash guard that covers the pan, but uses the frizzen spring screw. That way it doesn't leave a large space below the frizzen that makes cleaning harder, as would adapting a basic musket guard to the lock would do. Thus:
FLASH GUARD FRIZZEN SPRING.jpg
THEN there is reportedly an original flash guard, found on a musket, that uses the cock screw to mount it. I don't recommend these...and actually in this extant example I think the entire cock jaw and guard are one piece. Still don't like 'em. It adds weight to the cock, which may either slow down the movement of the lock, or add too much weight to the impact. It also runs the risk of bending inward, and stopping the cock when if the guard hits the edge of the pan.
FLASH GUARD VARIATION.jpg

I hope this helps.

LD
 

Grenadier1758

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A couple more flashguards.

This is my L&R late English lock on my Derringer rifle and a lock showing the mill work and tapping for the fastener. Mike Lea did the modification to the locks.
20190721_114948.jpg

My Long Land Pattern King's Musket has the fattener drilled into the pan. The frizzen is not bridled so the guard was not installed under the frizzen bolt.
20190721_133513.jpg

Most of us will have the Siler style lock with the replacement bolt as Dave showed in his post above.

How you install your flashguard will depend on the configuration of your lock.
 

Oswald

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Thanks to each of you for your help.
I have a bore solvent, T of W's, but it doesn't get all of it. I will try rubbing alcohol. Mostly I fire blanks in a color guard and clean it when I get home.
A Charlieville from veteran arms is my first musket and I put a flash guard on it. AWast as he frizzen is mounted by a screw.
I have no isea who made the lock for the NAW Trade gun. The frizzen is mounted on a pin but the bottom of the spring has a screw.
I know mn with the exact gun and a lot more experence. Ill see what he did.
 
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What is the correct flash guard for a NW Trade gun?

Also what is a good solvent for the pan and lock area?
The original old-time users didn't use guards, but for safety we all should today. So any properly fitting guard is the one to use; it can be taken off for "period correct" photos or display.
 

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Except for situations where you fire the rifle or musket in line, someone standing close on your right, as in color-guard or re-enactment, I don't know why anyone would run one, want one, or consider one. But I understand why the OP needs one. They certainly get in the way, make it difficult to clean the pan and touch-hole, and make a nice funnel for water in wet weather. And look ugly. :) But that's just me.
 

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Many Klatch

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I had a flash guard on my Pedersoli Bess. It's OK if you are shooting blanks, but if you are doing shooting roundball, I found that the blow back tended to damage my glasses. I still have the flash guard but now it's in the shooting box, not on the gun.
 

Loyalist Dave

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Never taken a lock off before but I will attempt to find a longer bolt.
IF you have the common lock found on the trade guns..., you simply compress the frizzen spring slightly, then remove the frizzen screw, put the screw through the guard, and reinstall the screw now holding the guard. Then uncompress the frizzen spring. Voila, done. The small amount that the screw is raised due to the guard will not harm the piece. Can you post a picture of your lock???

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Loyalist Dave

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They certainly get in the way, make it difficult to clean the pan and touch-hole, and make a nice funnel for water in wet weather. And look ugly
Um not really, having "run one" for a quarter century, on Bess, or a rifle. You see most folks don't shoot that much to really foul a lock, unless of course you're one of them reenactors, such as myself, and then you need one as you stand in line for volley fire. They are pretty easy to keep clean. They don't funnel rain water into the pan either, at least the two versions that I use, and in fact I find more of a problem with water running toward the pan, along the edge formed where the wood meets the side of the barrel, than anywhere else. ;) You may also want one at the range, especially for the fellow shooting a left handed lock.

For it's one thing to be a bit bothered by the occasional fleck of powder bouncing off your left ear as you shoulder your right-locked musket or rifle on your right shoulder. It's very much another thing when you're priming that loaded musket or rifle, holding it on your right side, and the chap to your right is left handed. When he fires his flecks of smoldering powder are landing right around that lock and horn spout as your prime. :confused: That same experience is in store for the lefty, when a righty is shooting, standing at the next station on the range line, to the lefty's left-hand side. o_O

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Oswald

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I ordered the gun from Access Heritage. The frizzen screw is internal. I obtained a longer screw from T of W but it is slightly too large a diameter. Apparently I have a different lock from their TG but they look the same.
How can I tell who made the lock? Anyplace besides TofW where these longer bolts can be obtained?
 

Artificer

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I ordered the gun from Access Heritage. The frizzen screw is internal. I obtained a longer screw from T of W but it is slightly too large a diameter. Apparently I have a different lock from their TG but they look the same.
How can I tell who made the lock? Anyplace besides TofW where these longer bolts can be obtained?
Do you know what size screw threads there are on the screw you want to replace?

If I were doing it on one of my guns, the first thing I would do is find out what the screw threads are. If I didn't have an unthreaded blank screw the right length, off I would go to one of the large Hardware Stores to see if they had a longer screw I could modify. I would probably take the screw I wanted to replace with me and a pair of precision or digital calipers, plus the estimated length I would need the new screw to be.

Perhaps something easier is checking at Track of the Wolf to see if they have a longer screw in that thread size like a Side Plate Screw and then cutting it and modifying it as necessary. You don't even have to have a drill press to do that, as long as you have a good electric hand drill large enough to accommodate the screw. BTW, this is why I have only bought 1/2" Electric Hand Drills vs 3/8" ones for decades, as the 1/2" drills are well worth the money for their versatility.

Gus
 

Oswald

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Do you know what size screw threads there are on the screw you want to replace?

If I were doing it on one of my guns, the first thing I would do is find out what the screw threads are. If I didn't have an unthreaded blank screw the right length, off I would go to one of the large Hardware Stores to see if they had a longer screw I could modify. I would probably take the screw I wanted to replace with me and a pair of precision or digital calipers, plus the estimated length I would need the new screw to be.

Perhaps something easier is checking at Track of the Wolf to see if they have a longer screw in that thread size like a Side Plate Screw and then cutting it and modifying it as necessary. You don't even have to have a drill press to do that, as long as you have a good electric hand drill large enough to accommodate the screw. BTW, this is why I have only bought 1/2" Electric Hand Drills vs 3/8" ones for decades, as the 1/2" drills are well worth the money for their versatility.

Gus
I have a tap and die set that I use to get thread size. What do you use? I will try the hardware store and T 0f W.
 

Artificer

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I have Thread Gages in both Inch and Metric Sizes, but I realize most folks don't have those tools. There is a very good chance the threads on your screws will be Metric, if your gun was made overseas. Some of the large Hardware stores have thread gage plates in both Inch and Metric sizes, so that may be another way for you to find out.

One thing I strongly suggest is write down what size it is while at the hardware store, especially if it is Metric. That way you won't forget later. Trust me, I've done that a few times myself.

Gus
 

Oswald

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I obtain a tread gauge and discovered the screw was 3mm at 9 tread. I had the longer, bigger screw from TofW so I drilled out the hole and recut the treads for that. I overheated the frizzen and it split below the hole, where it contacts the spring. I'm thinking of getting a frizzen from TofW. They come "as cast". I assume they must be ground to fit. Do they need to be hardened also?
What would be a reasonable tension on the frizzen?
 

Zonie

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The last as cast frizzen I got needed to be sanded to smooth out the slightly rough surfaces, the screw hole drilled and then be hardened.
Drilling the screw hole was the biggest challenge because it has to be done with the frizzen clamped onto the lock while it is sitting, tightly closed on the pan. Then, using the existing hole in the lockplate as a guide, getting the drill aligned so both ends of hole will line up with the existing threaded hole was needed.
I must confess, I messed up more than one frizzen before I got things right.
 

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A hole can be drilled in the bottom of the pan and tapped, the one I did is 5/40 and a flash guard can be attached (or easily removed). Flashguards are required equipment at re-enactments and at some shoots.
The Image I have of it is too big to attach.
 
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