First Time. TC Hawken

[RIDE-RED350R]

It stinks but sometimes we don't have much of a choice if we want to keep shooting.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

It stinks but sometimes we don't have much of a choice if we want to keep shooting.

I completely agree. And really prices compared to handloading centrefire’s wasn’t much different. But because where I live and I can’t buy BP locally or close to, that shipping price from BC was what tipped the scale. I need to find somewhere close to home or in MB would be ideal.

 

[MSW]

i would get all the "real" blackpowder that i could, but at that price point, you might want to consider making your own (if it's legal in Canada - i don't know) ... it's said to be legal here in the US, but i don't want to find out the hard way when the BATFE comes to my door in the wee hours of the morning .. the "substitute" stuff is OK, but a bit harder to ignite than PB, so if that's what you have to use, the cap problem might become a bigger issue...

ok - we're not supposed to discuss it on this forum, so i'm probably close to the line if not over it ... don't get 'jammed up' over what i say - not worth the trouble...

as far as making caps, it's legal here in the US, but again, i don't know about Canada ... there are two styles of do-it-yourself cap makers: on uses the caps from the toy cap pistols, and one uses a compound which you put inside the little cup.

regarding lube, i use the mink oil from Track of the Wolf and it works OK ... no problem in the cold (but then again, it doesn't get all that cold here - southeastern Vermont)

if you cast your own ball, remember that you want soft lead - not the harder stuff you cast if you handload your own centerfire ... i have found that getting lead can be something of a challenge unless you know a plumber or a roofer, and many have surrendered to buying it from RotoMetals ... don't know if there's an equivalent in Canada

to squeeze the maximum accuracy out of your rifle, check out the Dutch Schoultz method. He died a while ago, which is a great shame. His method is pretty simple and straightforward, and will set you back about thirty bucks for a printed copy. This is money well spent. Here's a link:
https://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
if you cut your own patches (and i recommend that you do) be sure not to have any synthetic fibers in the weave: so if it says "poly/cotton" do NOT run this down the bore... i go to the local dry goods store and get pocket drill ... Dutch's method will describe how to pick out the correct thickness of fabric.

do not fall for the siren song of the latest greatest bestest most wonderfullest cleaning solution known to man. plain old warm (not hot) soapy water will do fine ... the barrel will unhook from the breech and you can just plonk the breech end into a pail of WNOSW (warm not hot soapy water) and run the patch back and forth ... repeat until water runs clear, dry and run some barricade (or whatever) and you're all set ... i don't take the nipple out each and every time, but some do ...

good luck with your new rifle!

(free advice, and doubtless well worth the price)

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

i would get all the "real" blackpowder that i could, but at that price point, you might want to consider making your own (if it's legal in Canada - i don't know) ... it's said to be legal here in the US, but i don't want to find out the hard way when the BATFE comes to my door in the wee hours of the morning .. the "substitute" stuff is OK, but a bit harder to ignite than PB, so if that's what you have to use, the cap problem might become a bigger issue...

ok - we're not supposed to discuss it on this forum, so i'm probably close to the line if not over it ... don't get 'jammed up' over what i say - not worth the trouble...

as far as making caps, it's legal here in the US, but again, i don't know about Canada ... there are two styles of do-it-yourself cap makers: on uses the caps from the toy cap pistols, and one uses a compound which you put inside the little cup.

regarding lube, i use the mink oil from Track of the Wolf and it works OK ... no problem in the cold (but then again, it doesn't get all that cold here - southeastern Vermont)

if you cast your own ball, remember that you want soft lead - not the harder stuff you cast if you handload your own centerfire ... i have found that getting lead can be something of a challenge unless you know a plumber or a roofer, and many have surrendered to buying it from RotoMetals ... don't know if there's an equivalent in Canada

to squeeze the maximum accuracy out of your rifle, check out the Dutch Schoultz method. He died a while ago, which is a great shame. His method is pretty simple and straightforward, and will set you back about thirty bucks for a printed copy. This is money well spent. Here's a link:
https://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
if you cut your own patches (and i recommend that you do) be sure not to have any synthetic fibers in the weave: so if it says "poly/cotton" do NOT run this down the bore... i go to the local dry goods store and get pocket drill ... Dutch's method will describe how to pick out the correct thickness of fabric.

do not fall for the siren song of the latest greatest bestest most wonderfullest cleaning solution known to man. plain old warm (not hot) soapy water will do fine ... the barrel will unhook from the breech and you can just plonk the breech end into a pail of WNOSW (warm not hot soapy water) and run the patch back and forth ... repeat until water runs clear, dry and run some barricade (or whatever) and you're all set ... i don't take the nipple out each and every time, but some do ...

good luck with your new rifle!

(free advice, and doubtless well worth the price)

Thanks and your on par with my plans once supplies come in. 3lbs of powder should get me going for now, and musket caps were available and so were nipples for $7 each. Gotta remember up here with exchange around 40% higher then the US currently. So $50/lbs of real BP equates to ~$35US. Not sure on what you pay, but maybe it will give some insight to supplies and current price comparison. Thanks again and I will look into that book.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Think I got everything I need now to get started. Lots of stuff for sure, not everything is needed but definitely need to get a carry bag for the field gear. I’ll be shooting this weekend to try her out. Some things are overboard but I’ll use it eventually. Can’t wait

 

[nit wit]

Take a hacksaw and cut 1/4 of the total length off the jag. If you don't you will lose cleaning patches. I don't like bore butter, I had rust for years, when shooting repeatedly use spit on the bottom of the patch, long term use olive oil. I clean with window cleaner and the run a patch with oil down the bore. >490 ball, 55 gr. per volume 2F, 50 gr 3F is agood place to start and at 25 yards. Before loading snap a cap, put the muzzle near something that will move, this tells you you have a clear fire channel. There is a screw below the nipple, leave it alone, no need to ever touch it.
Nit Wit

 

[Togo]

You also need some shotgun sized cleaning patches.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

Just a thought... from one newcomer to another, and please excuse me and tell me where to go if you already know this. But, never directly load your gun from a powder flask or there is a small but significant chance the powder and flask could ignite if there is a residual ember from the last shot. I have a box of 50 plastic 'test tubes' with stoppers, into each I have decanted 60 Grains of powder from my flask (my Hawken is a .45). This box of loading tubes cost me about 9 Euros.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

Well update for any Canadians that don’t have local stores or any US hunters coming up. It’s Expensive! I ordered 3lbs to get started of the Schuetzen. 1 of 2FG and 2 of 3FG. Along with caps, a rod, patches and some other odds and ends. All together shipped as “dangerous goods ground shipment” in Canada and she’s over $400. $50 a lbs adds up, and shipping cost equates to about 30% of the total. Oh well though I should be good for awhile regardless.

Wow... 50 dollars a pound... If it was that cheap over here (Europe) I would buy the whole supply up! My last pound of powder cost me 80 Euros, including shipping, back in November.

 

[TNTraveler]

Okay awesome info everyone. The cleaning jag is a plus, I’ve never seen one like that in my searches so I had to ask. So far from what I’ve been able to find #11 caps are NOT available anywhere in Canada. I will have to resort to a 209 conversion nipple or make my own caps. As for powder from the usual people I get my centrefire supplies from I’ve narrowed down my availability to Triple 7 FFG/FFFG(both available), Pyrodex RS/Select and one supplier also has Schuetzen 2F/3F available. I’ve never heard of the latter but it’s a decent price. Shipping is another issue, in Canada powders are only available via ground shipment which can take awhile and be expensive. Luckily enough I do live near the border and supplies might be available for some things in Minnesota. My ball mold is a .490 round ball, I’ll need a ladle, I have everything else from my other hobbies. After gathering all this info in short time I’ve narrowed down to the following list of gear that I should be able to order for ~$75 shipped almost all from one supplier other then caps and powder;

Upgraded rod
Ladle
Patch Puller
Patches
Nipple wrench
Bore Butter(or some other lube)

Currently I’ve got on hand lots of G36 and Amsoil Cleaner/Lube, I’ve never had issues with it for cleaning my other centrefire rifles but I may use the soap and water trick, lots of Dawn in this shop. As for patches all I can find is pre-lubed. Either WonderLube or EZ clean shooting patch, 0.010 or 0.015 from Traditions or CVA. Or I make my own, im sure it’s not too difficult. As for lube some guys here say they’re against bore butter? Can a shotgun choke grease be used in substitute for nipple install? Also for cleaning the breech? I’m assuming some sort of snake or q-tip would be helpful? I know it’s common on flintlocks but I imagine percussions get dirty in there as well. Thanks again.

Reason for the shape on the end of the cleaning jag is it fits the concave shape of the inside of the breech plug on a T/C ML, once you run it down the barrel you can rotate it to help clean the bottom of the breech plug, I've seen a lot of ML where people clean the barrel but not the breech, and it rust up, causing misfires, good luck with the new toy

 

[ETipp]

You also need some shotgun sized cleaning patches.

Indeed. I make my own out of old white Tee shirts.

 

[Amok]

Hey everyone, first off I’d like to say I finally purchased my first ML after introducing myself on here some time ago. Pic below of the package I purchased. It’s a TC Hawken percussion. I’m unsure of the year, but if came with a few essentials. And I’m assuming a 1:48 twist from my research. But I have a few questions being a first timer…what else do I need to get? Obviously powder and caps and some lead, but above that from what I’ve got I’m thinking;

Patch puller
Nipple wrench
Bore butter
Patches
Cleaning brush/swab

Anything I’m missing?! Also question on caps/powder. I live in an extremely rural area of Canada with limited supplies, that being said I want to buy what I need first and not learn the hard way. So anyways my other big question here is caps…the man I purchased the rifle from claims it takes 209 primer caps and not the common #11 caps I’ve been reading about?! But I think he’s more of a consignment dealer and not personally owning the rifle. So what is the major difference here? Can they be used interchangeably or do they drastically effect powder type? Does the nipple need to be changed? And how do I tell for sure which one it takes? Thanks in advanced, I can’t wait to get started.

Judging from the picture, I don’t see a 209 conversion (magspark) device. If there was one I’d advise to just go back to a regular nipple. I have had much better results in recent years with actual black powder and #11 primers or my tc renegade flintlock ignition.

 

[ETipp]

Just a thought... from one newcomer to another, and please excuse me and tell me where to go if you already know this. But, never directly load your gun from a powder flask or there is a small but significant chance the powder and flask could ignite if there is a residual ember from the last shot. I have a box of 50 plastic 'test tubes' with stoppers, into each I have decanted 60 Grains of powder from my flask (my Hawken is a .45). This box of loading tubes cost me about 9 Euros.

That is all correct. Never pour powder directly from a powder horn or flask into the barrel. Leave that to the movie stars. They are real good at it.

Small sealed pill bottles, containers, tubes, speed loaders, etc, filled with a premeasured amount of powder are a good idea for sure especially if you do not want to pack a powder horn or flask out with you. This is especially true during bad weather.

If you do not mind taking a powder horn or flask out with you target shooting or hunting, you will need to take a powder measure along. Set the powder measure for the amount of powder you desire to shoot, pour the powder into the powder measure, then pour it down into the barrel. *After pouring the powder into the barrel and before loading a projectile*, get in the habit of leaning the rifle over towards the lock side, then take your hand and wrap on the butt stock a few times. What that does is help settle powder into the flash channel. If you get into the habit of doing this every time, your chances of a misfire will be reduced substantially. Then after wrapping on the butt stock, load the the patch and ball (or conical).

Always mark your ramrod so you know you have the ball or bullet fully against the powder charge. I prefer to hold a knife or something fine and sharp against the ramrod while its down against the powder charge, then spin the ramrod all the way around. Do this right at the muzzle. This will leave a good reference line on the ramrod for quickly ascertaining the ball is all the way down.

Its powder, patch, ball and run it all the way home/down. Never forget to run the ball all they way down until it is seated against the powder. If one becomes distracted it can be somewhat easy to just punch the ball down with the ball starter and forget to run it all the way home with the ramrod. Not good.

You will be doing yourself a huge favor by not allowing anyone or anything to distract you during your loading sequence. Yesterday at the range there was some young people there. They were proud of their firearms and was hinting that I check them out. I had planned on doing so after I had finished shooting, but they were gone before then. Last time I was at the range I allowed myself to be distracted by others wanting to hold conversation and I wound up forgetting to load my ML. Fortunately, I had not loaded anything yet. All I did was snap a couple of caps before I realized I had forgotten to load it. Lesson learned. I promised myself right then and there that I will no longer allow myself to be distracted while shooting my ML.

 

[Amok]

Okay awesome info everyone. The cleaning jag is a plus, I’ve never seen one like that in my searches so I had to ask. So far from what I’ve been able to find #11 caps are NOT available anywhere in Canada. I will have to resort to a 209 conversion nipple or make my own caps. As for powder from the usual people I get my centrefire supplies from I’ve narrowed down my availability to Triple 7 FFG/FFFG(both available), Pyrodex RS/Select and one supplier also has Schuetzen 2F/3F available. I’ve never heard of the latter but it’s a decent price. Shipping is another issue, in Canada powders are only available via ground shipment which can take awhile and be expensive. Luckily enough I do live near the border and supplies might be available for some things in Minnesota. My ball mold is a .490 round ball, I’ll need a ladle, I have everything else from my other hobbies. After gathering all this info in short time I’ve narrowed down to the following list of gear that I should be able to order for ~$75 shipped almost all from one supplier other then caps and powder;

Upgraded rod
Ladle
Patch Puller
Patches
Nipple wrench
Bore Butter(or some other lube)

Currently I’ve got on hand lots of G36 and Amsoil Cleaner/Lube, I’ve never had issues with it for cleaning my other centrefire rifles but I may use the soap and water trick, lots of Dawn in this shop. As for patches all I can find is pre-lubed. Either WonderLube or EZ clean shooting patch, 0.010 or 0.015 from Traditions or CVA. Or I make my own, im sure it’s not too difficult. As for lube some guys here say they’re against bore butter? Can a shotgun choke grease be used in substitute for nipple install? Also for cleaning the breech? I’m assuming some sort of snake or q-tip would be helpful? I know it’s common on flintlocks but I imagine percussions get dirty in there as well. Thanks again.

One thing I’d caution against is Gun oils that will pool in the powder well. TC guns have a powder well and oil can pool causing misfires. I have used pyrodex in my TC guns but ignition with no11 primers was terribly inconsistent and deer would just stare at me and walk away. I’m using Goex now and I’m way happier. I started using Ballistol. The natural cleaning products never seemed to work great for me.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Well I took my time with it. Took everything apart and cleaned well, sanded and re-finished the stock as well. Some pitting in the barrel unfortunately was hiding under the bore butter from the previous owner but it doesn’t seem to effect much if anything. I also shot it for the first time with a .490 ball, .015 patch and 60gr of 2F Schuetzen. Honestly I suspected a lot louder and more kick, I know I’m on the light side of the load but I’m happy I was able to hit a knot on a 2x4 I picked out at about 25 yards away for my first shot ever with ML.

I afterwards cleaned the bore and breech with some soaked patches of the “Dutch’s Bore Shine” along with some dry patches til clean and a patch of Barricade ran down for storage since I’m unsure when I’ll shoot again.

I do admit I’d like to use up some of these products and find a “minimalist” approach for cleaning and shooting. They seem to work good, but I have alot of stuff as it is and the garage shelves are filling up fast with all my hobbies. A field kit that has almost everything aside from some shot necessities would be ideal once I sort it out and use some stuff up.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Cleaning with water or water and a drop or two of detergent has worked for decades. Can’t get more minimalist than that. Dry and a good oil used sparingly to protect they bore. Been doing that for 40+ years.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Cleaning with water or water and a drop or two of detergent has worked for decades. Can’t get more minimalist than that. Dry and a good oil used sparingly to protect they bore. Been doing that for 40+ years.

This is my plan for whenever I’m back home to do it. I used this method first time when cleaning and getting familiar with the rifle. More or less I’m going to look at options for field cleaning as well is what I meant by minimalist.

 

[Steve Wagner]

Hey now, don't go dissing my favorite ball & bullet lube!

Where did you hear that animal greases can be removed with rubbing alcohol? Hot soapy water is the way to remove things like that. So far as filling the "powder chamber" (um... muzzleloaders do not have chambers) with "burnt Bore Butter and fouling",.. I have been shooting for thirty years and NEVER had that problem, so this statement is simply bull****. Even the old petroleum based lubes didn't do that.

"dish soap and water"?! for a patch lube?! Really?!

Use a non-petroleum grease or oil, depending upon whether you are shooting conical bullets or patched round balls. Yeah spit will work if you enjoy sucking on cloth patches, but products like T/C Bore Butter have been in general use for at least as long as spit patches... and you can't use spit with conical bullets. Olive oil, cooking spray, Crisco, lard and many other non-petroleum lubes work just fine. As you are beginning, maybe you should use a product that was specifically marketed as a ball and bullet lube like for instance, T/C Bore Butter?

See, I toldja that we don't always agree... and the "discussions" about cleaning and lubing black powder guns can get quite heated. Just do a search on "seasoning" if you wanna see just HOW heated... or even worse "blowing into the muzzle".

Carl Sandburg is credited with saying "Beware of advice -- even this." That is a good motto for this and all other Internet forums and other sources of information as well. Weigh everything you read here against your own experiences and feel free to throw anything away if you think it came out of the South end of a North-bound bull.

Sorry for the rant. I was forced to take someone to a shopping mall and didn't get my afternoon nap, so I am a bit grouchy.

Ok Dale, of all the good people here that have helped me [as a beginner] out, you have done, probably the most for me. But....I have no experience w bore butter [yet] but I merely have 2 50 cal Hawkens. One is a Traditions Woodsman that I cannot make misfire. It just shoots...over and over. And w that fireproof triple 7 2f to boot. The design of the drum seems to prevent my jag from going far enough to plug the flash hole from between shot swabbing. [I have measured this.] The other is a stainless TC that will misfire every time if I take the jag and patch past the drum. [Also measured this.] I am just using a light spray of alcohol on the patch, not soaked at all. [But still probably a no no for some.] I am careful about tapping the charge into the drum w both rifles. When the TC misfires and I pull the nipple, the drum is empty. I charge it, replace nipple and Bang-every time. So....maybe guns are like wives-all temperamental in their unique and beautiful ways. I don't think for a minute that my limited experience w just 2 rifles should change anyone's successful routine one iota. If it is working for you, don't fix it. My thought-You should use bore butter and Grenadier should not. And don't loan each other your rifles either. I mean it ! And I will bet good money that advice gets followed. I'm not saying what I will do. At least until after your nap. :] Now where did I put that petroleum jelly for my patches when I want to chamber a roundball ??? Now the OP has some experimenting to do. SW

 

[OldSmoky1967]

The picture is too small of the lock and nipple for me to see what you have. There is an after market device for using 209 instead of caps and I’m thinking it’s not necessary. A standard cap is cheaper and works well.
Cleaning jag?
Im in the dont use Bore Butter camp, it leaves a build up.

Bore butter does leave a build up. Phil is right. Also I clean after every three shots, or so, and fire a cleaning cap with no powder or load afterwards to make sure the flash channel is free of obstruction from cleaning.

 

[ETipp]

Shot my Crocket Squirrel Rifle 10 shots out hunting last week without running a cleaning patch down the barrel. Still killing squirrels with the 9th shot. I use older bore butter for patch lube. If Bore Butter leaves a buildup in barrels my Crocket rifle didn't get the memo.

Also, Bore Butter is the only lube I have ever used out of every ML I have owned, even with conicals.

Not saying its the best by no means, but I have never experienced the first problem with it since 1982.