First Flintlock

[Rató:rats]

Hey Guys
So it’s tax season here in Canada and I’m getting a nice fat refund for once. For about the last decade I’ve been meaning to get a flintlock but have never had the disposable income for anything other than a cheapo Indian repro.
I’ve looked at the Pedersoli Trade gun and liked the price, liked that the 36 inch barrel would fit nice in the canoe and tent, but I hate the barrel markings Pedersoli uses and I wish it had the tang bolt coming up from the trigger guard.and don’t get me started on the side plate. What do you guys think of this?http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/f-313/
I’m primarily using it for Butlers Rangers rev war and Caldwell’s Rangers 1812 reenacting and hunting, mostly canoe trekking around Georgian Bay and here on the Grand River. I like that it has an early round faced lock (L & R Queen Anne, easy to find parts for) and the tang bolt comes up from in front of the trigger guard. I also like that it uses a tapered barrel, unlike TVM which I also looked at.
Now I know maple isn’t the most correct stock material but as others on the forum have pointed out in the Book of Buckskinning IV there’s a picture of an early trade gun in curly maple dated from the 1730’s so I don’t think it’s implausible. Ray Franks told me via email that It’s priced to move because some wood filler was used around the serpent side plate and there are some other minor historical anachronisms to the piece, ramrod pipe placement etc. Do you guys think it’s a good entry level flintlock? Is the price fair? I’m rewarding myself for my 35th Birthday and this might be the only gun I ever buy so I want to get it right. I can’t really spend more then $1700.00 US all in, shipping included.
Thanks very much look forward to everybody’s two cents.

 

[hanshi]

Welcome to the forum, s.a. fox. That Sitting Fox gun would sure get my vote. And TVM DOES offer tapered barrels if you request them. Pedersoli is pretty good for factory guns if that's the way you want to go.

 

[Rató:rats]

Thank you kindly Hanshi
I meant to say TVM doesn’t offer a tapered barrel on their standard base price model Fowler. I’ve spoken to Melanie at TVM and she was very helpful and knowledgeable. Unfortunately to upgrade to a tapered barrel knocks the piece out of my price range.


Stephen

 

[bigted]

Knowing what I know now ... I would insist on a flat barrel plug. Not for a minute would I consider a "patent breech".

Either get a pinned ramrod or pin it after buying ... pays HUGE dividends.

Push your envelope and buy the highest end weapon that you can eek out. Beg, borrow or steal enough to go the next level ... most especially if you surmise that this will be a once in a lifetime purchase .

TVM makes some great weapons but there are others that will get you closer to PC weapons ... within your price range or very little over ... again push your envelope as much as you can.

Advice from the peanut gallery ... worth every penny you paid for it.

 

[Rató:rats]

Hi bigted
Thanks for the advice. Definitely trying to go as high-end as I can.
What’s a pinned ramrod and what are the alternatives? What makes it superior? Do you mean the ramrod pipes are pinned?
Any advice for a newbie is appreciated.

Thank you kindly.

 

[bigted]

no , the ends on your ramrod is what I was talking about. it is a bummer to have them come off down bore during cleaning or such and then have need to try to blow them out ... sooo ... I heartily recommend that the ramrod ends {usually brass} are pinned with a cross pin that is peened into the brass so the end will stay with your wooden ramrod. not impossible to remove from the barrel when and if they come off the rod ... but a real hassle when in the middle of shooting, swabbing or cleaning.

if this ever happens it is pretty straight forward how to remove it or a dry balled ball from the rifle/smoothy. just shove in as much 3F or 4F powder thru the nipple hole after removing the nipple from a cap gun ... or ... thru the touch hole on a flinter and shoot it out. sometimes this takes several try's to get stubborn ones out. but you will not get too much powder in thru these entry points to harm anything. I have shot them into a pile of blankets or cardboard layers to retrieve the item I got stuck in the bore.

this is going to be an excellent journey my friend. filled with frustrations and victory's and an entire length learning curve. I am still in my learning curve and I have been off n on in this since my first kit in the early 70's. it takes the load of life off me when I slow down and smell the sweet smell of sulfur and charcoal burnin.

 

[Rató:rats]

Oh ok. It didn’t occur to me that the ramrod tip might detach while in the barrel. Good to know. That’s probably not beyond my skill set to remedy if I get a ramrod that’s not pinned.
Cool idea on feeding powder through the vent to bang out a stuck tip. Hopefully it’s not knowledge I’ll have to put to use.
Thanks for sharing bigted

 

[bigted]

LOL ... only way I know to avoid gettin something stuck in the barrel is ... wait for it ... STOP NOW! RUN FAST!DO NOT SHOOT YOUR FIRST SHOT!

It is only a matter of shots fired. Some prolong it for a long time ... others begin rite away needing that skill.

Just a matter of part of the game. Frontier folks always had a spare rod or three for this occasion. Surprised we don't find brass rod ends bury'd in ruins of old villages and homesteads. This has only gone on for as long as projectiles have been blasted out of barrels.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Back in the day, most rods would not have had brass tips. Grooves might have been cut to hold a wad of tow. There might have been a brass tip on an old Long Land pattern musket with a wooden ramrod. But those would have most likely been pinned since there was no epoxy.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I’ve looked at the Pedersoli Trade gun and liked the price, liked that the 36 inch barrel would fit nice in the canoe and tent, but I hate the barrel markings Pedersoli uses and I wish it had the tang bolt coming up from the trigger guard.and don’t get me started on the side plate. What do you guys think of this?F-313 Northwest Trade gun
...,Now I know maple isn’t the most correct stock material but as others on the forum have pointed out in the Book of Buckskinning IV there’s a picture of an early trade gun in curly maple dated from the 1730’s so I don’t think it’s implausible. ..., Do you guys think it’s a good entry level flintlock? Is the price fair? I’m rewarding myself for my 35th Birthday and this might be the only gun I ever buy so I want to get it right.

Thanks very much look forward to everybody’s two cents.

I am not going to tell you the Pedersoli Indian "Trade Musket" is what it should be..., BUT...,

I think that one should buy this for under $1000.00 Stain the stock to look like walnut. Remove the bluing and the color case hardening, and go with it, from Pedersoli...



And as a result, as it's a kit you can take off the "teardrop", or even leave it and end up with a lock mortise that is at least close to correctly shaped, thus:


Original NW Trade Gun lock and side panels:









RATHER THAN contemplating spending a whole lot more, for a trade gun with a hamfisted lock panels, and a lock with sand cast parts that the builder failed to polish, probably because either the assembler of this did not know what was supposed to be done, or worse the assembler figured the poor sap paying $1700 wouldn't know the difference .... finished thus:





It's your money, but if somebody was charging me $1700.00 plus shipping, and making me wait a while before I got the thing, they darn well would correctly make the lock and side panels, and properly polish the lock to better resemble a hand filed and polished lock of the 18th century, INSTEAD of cutting corners.

LD

 

[Rató:rats]

Thanks for the info Dave. definitely some food for thought. Like some other guys new to this I’d prefer to spend a little more and have something ready to go out of the box without too much defarbing. That being said maybe a bit of a project wouldn’t be so bad right now. I’ll just try to patient now and see what smoothies come up on the for sale section here in the next few weeks.

 

[Rató:rats]

Dave when polishing a sandblasted lock like the Queen Anne on the sitting fox would you just disassemble it and go over the parts with 00 steel wool?

 

[Rudyard]

Very curious posts with big figure costings . Ime not sure if North Star West are still operating but if not. advertise for a used one ?. I have all the parts for a Chiefs grade North Star spider foresight ect & Birmingham proofed a documentary piece , but getting it too you will these days be a pain but could be done if your going to spend that kind of money I would consider your order. Iv'e made a lot of these guns . Iv'e guns of my make in museums . Self praise is no recomendation but should tell you Im'e capable ..See how you go . Regards Rudyard

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Dave when polishing a sandblasted lock like the Queen Anne on the sitting fox would you just disassemble it and go over the parts with 00 steel wool?

Naw, I'd actually use emory paper, and some oil. Different grits. I'd have a small dowel to wrap the paper around to get in to the curved portions on the cock. I'd have a piece off an old wooden yard stick...the cheapo ones from the lumber yard, to get at the bend where the front of the frizzen meets the top of the pan. I'd also highly polish the frizzen toe and where it meets the top of the frizzen spring, as well as the sides of the frizzen on either side of the hole for the frizzen screw.

Folks seem to think that they didn't polish the locks in the 18th and 19th century. Some folks think that browning the sandblasted lock without polishing it first makes it look more "rustic". No, it just looks like somebody skipped a step, which they did, since in our modern times you don't have to file the lock by hand.

LD

 

[Grumpa]

Cool idea on feeding powder through the vent to bang out a stuck tip. Hopefully it’s not knowledge I’ll have to put to use.

That bit of knowledge will come in handy when you dry ball - i.e. ram the ball home after you've forgotten to pour powder down the bore. We've all done that, some of us more than once.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Buckskinn]

Those side panels look make it look like it used to be a 2×4.

I would want to see it in person, but looks like there is plenty of room to make it right. Get out your rasps, files and chisels and go to work in that stock... Although for that amount of money you can buy a Chambers or Kibler kit with high grade wood and make it your own...